It is believed that several of the 9/11/01 terrorist entered the US via Canada and crossed the boarder illegally. After 5 years, the US legislature has decided that porous boarders may not be the best way to repel foreign terrorist. They are deliberating stronger laws. For the last few weeks, immigrants’ rights activists have been marching in support of relaxed regulation of undocumented immigration.
I am personally upset by the Mexican flags that wave during the protests. The immigrants come to the US for a life, legal system and society that far outpace their circumstances in Mexico. Likely in most instances it was desperate conditions in Mexico that initially drove them to the US. Also these protesters want undocumented immigrants integrated into the US, and yet they wave Mexican flags? Doesn’t this illustrate a lack of loyalty to America?
Interesting side note, Mexico has a federal law prohibiting the use of the Mexican flag, or the flag of any other nation in a demonstration. A friend of mine was once jailed from having a Mexican flag decal in the rear window of his car.
US immigration reform
US immigration reform
Keep your sharpened steel sword, this wooden one will be all I need!
Good poll, musashi. Flags do matter, but not because they're flags; the symbolism is behind them is what counts.
When people wave a mexican flag at a US demonstration you show your true colors, so to speak -- where your alligeance lays. I find it despicable that people who, as the OP points out, chose (or tried to) a life as a US immigrant only to live there, but not immigrate. A similar situation crops up in the UK and many other European countries alike:
We get foreigners who come here for one reason or another -- political asylum, immigration or as illegal alien. They set up foreign (i.e. arabic) schools to teach the ways of their country, they refuse to learn the language and live in ghettos.
Is this how immigrants should be have? No.
Of course, the act of waving a foreign nations' flag is itself not an offense. The danish crown prince married an Australian girl and both the Australian and Danish flags were waved by Danish and Australian people alike. This is not a problem, because one aren't unsure of where ones allegiance is.
When people wave a mexican flag at a US demonstration you show your true colors, so to speak -- where your alligeance lays. I find it despicable that people who, as the OP points out, chose (or tried to) a life as a US immigrant only to live there, but not immigrate. A similar situation crops up in the UK and many other European countries alike:
We get foreigners who come here for one reason or another -- political asylum, immigration or as illegal alien. They set up foreign (i.e. arabic) schools to teach the ways of their country, they refuse to learn the language and live in ghettos.
Is this how immigrants should be have? No.
Of course, the act of waving a foreign nations' flag is itself not an offense. The danish crown prince married an Australian girl and both the Australian and Danish flags were waved by Danish and Australian people alike. This is not a problem, because one aren't unsure of where ones allegiance is.
If it moves, shoot it;
If it doesn't move, shoot it anyway - it might move later.
Crap, clicked the wrong button........ I'm think if they are so proud to be mexican... then they should go back to mexico. end of story. If you wanto be an American, then come to america and learn our language and customs. I have nothing aginst the imigrants wanting to retain their heritage, it defines where they come from, But they need to learn ours as well and respect our heritage and traditions.
Now that is a wonderful and completely appropriate use of flags of more than one nation. Displays like this or an international sporting event help to unite communities.dough wrote:Of course, the act of waving a foreign nations' flag is itself not an offense. The Danish crown prince married an Australian girl and both the Australian and Danish flags were waved by Danish and Australian people alike. This is not a problem, because one aren't unsure of where ones allegiance is.
Keep your sharpened steel sword, this wooden one will be all I need!
Well, I've got two different trains of thought here. Illegal immigration being one, the use of flags to deliver a political message another.
On illegal immigration, the arguments for it seem to revolve around the idea that american citizens are unwilling to do certain jobs, so a cheap labor pool is required to fulfill that need. As the INS and our laws are not designed to legally allow sufficient numbers of people into the country to fill all these jobs, potential employees must cross our borders illegally. Now, why should these perfectly good folks who came here because they were needed, and have provided so much by doing the work that no American wanted, now be forced to return to where ever they came from?
Well, so much for that argument. The fact is, illegal is illegal. By entering our country in this manner, they violated our laws. The whole theory of a legal system is that you punish law breakers, not reward them. Immigration is fine, it's what our country was built from. Uncontrolled, illegal immigration is not fine, it is what is destroying a lot of what we hold dear. I worry about what kind of entry level jobs my grandchildren might find. What kind of jobs are available for our High School kids when all the entry level positions are taken by illegals? Especially when so much of our white collar work is being exported overseas, as more and more companies look to outsourcing as a way of reducing costs.
Labor is a market, driven by the same forces of supply and demand as any other market. The presence of a large pool of workers willing to work for whatever is offered can do nothing but drive down wages. I don't think we want our economy to start looking like our latin neighbors, yet I don't see anyone in a position to do anything about it actually coming up with any solutions.
Are there solutions? I don't know, but I would think starting something like a guest worker program, where registration starts at our borders, might be one. I'm old enough to remember the "Brazero" (sp?) program, with bus loads of workers from Mexico being brought up to work in the fields of California. The program was full of problems and exploitation, yet most of the people involved were satisfied. The fields were worked and the laborers were paid and returned to Mexico.
But now, in a post 9/11 world, we must secure our borders. People coming into our country at the very least should be registered, photographed and perhaps even fingerprinted. Employers should be required to inform INS of the number of employees they will need over the next year or so, and the INS be charged with matching this requirement with suitible, registered workers. No registration, no work, and a quick trip back to where ever they came from. Oh, and this registration can only be done at the border. If you're here illegally, go back to the border and register if you want to work here. I'm not sure if it's still true, but back when I lived in Mexico, as an American, I was required to return to the United States every 6 months to renew my visa. Failure to do so would result in immediate arrest. I'm not suggesting that we should implement anything so draconian, but I also don't believe we should be so casual and forgiving to illegal entry into our country.
Ok, enough on that. Now on to flags. I spent a number of years in the military as a policeman, and can't count the number of times I took part in raising the flag in the morning and lowering it in the evening. Sometimes this was done with great ceromony, with lots of people in attendance, and other times, there would just be a detail sent to accomplish this. For a couple of years, I was tasked with being part of the post color guard, which meant we marched in every parade, lol. So in fact, I spent a lot of my life showing respect to our colors. But the fact is, a flag is only a piece of cloth, with little intrinsic value. However, we place a lot of emotional feeling into what our flag represents (at one time in Louisiana, they were talking about making it illegal to beat up a flag burner, punishable by a fine of not more than $25.00).
So, I'm all for flag waiving, if done for the right reasons. If I were of Mexican descent, I would probably display the Mexican flag on say Cinco de Mayo, or other occasions which would appropriately display my connection with my heritage. However, if I were demonstrating to support my illegal presence in the United States, I would think that flaunting my illegal status by angrilly waiving a foreign flag would only incite the voting public against my cause. Of course, this is America, and the right to waive whatever flag you want to is protected, even if you're here illegally. As voters, though, we can simply write our congressional leaders to let them know how we feel about such protests. Maybe make it illegal to beat up angry, foreign flag waiving protesters, punishable by a $25 fine? j/k, hehe
On illegal immigration, the arguments for it seem to revolve around the idea that american citizens are unwilling to do certain jobs, so a cheap labor pool is required to fulfill that need. As the INS and our laws are not designed to legally allow sufficient numbers of people into the country to fill all these jobs, potential employees must cross our borders illegally. Now, why should these perfectly good folks who came here because they were needed, and have provided so much by doing the work that no American wanted, now be forced to return to where ever they came from?
Well, so much for that argument. The fact is, illegal is illegal. By entering our country in this manner, they violated our laws. The whole theory of a legal system is that you punish law breakers, not reward them. Immigration is fine, it's what our country was built from. Uncontrolled, illegal immigration is not fine, it is what is destroying a lot of what we hold dear. I worry about what kind of entry level jobs my grandchildren might find. What kind of jobs are available for our High School kids when all the entry level positions are taken by illegals? Especially when so much of our white collar work is being exported overseas, as more and more companies look to outsourcing as a way of reducing costs.
Labor is a market, driven by the same forces of supply and demand as any other market. The presence of a large pool of workers willing to work for whatever is offered can do nothing but drive down wages. I don't think we want our economy to start looking like our latin neighbors, yet I don't see anyone in a position to do anything about it actually coming up with any solutions.
Are there solutions? I don't know, but I would think starting something like a guest worker program, where registration starts at our borders, might be one. I'm old enough to remember the "Brazero" (sp?) program, with bus loads of workers from Mexico being brought up to work in the fields of California. The program was full of problems and exploitation, yet most of the people involved were satisfied. The fields were worked and the laborers were paid and returned to Mexico.
But now, in a post 9/11 world, we must secure our borders. People coming into our country at the very least should be registered, photographed and perhaps even fingerprinted. Employers should be required to inform INS of the number of employees they will need over the next year or so, and the INS be charged with matching this requirement with suitible, registered workers. No registration, no work, and a quick trip back to where ever they came from. Oh, and this registration can only be done at the border. If you're here illegally, go back to the border and register if you want to work here. I'm not sure if it's still true, but back when I lived in Mexico, as an American, I was required to return to the United States every 6 months to renew my visa. Failure to do so would result in immediate arrest. I'm not suggesting that we should implement anything so draconian, but I also don't believe we should be so casual and forgiving to illegal entry into our country.
Ok, enough on that. Now on to flags. I spent a number of years in the military as a policeman, and can't count the number of times I took part in raising the flag in the morning and lowering it in the evening. Sometimes this was done with great ceromony, with lots of people in attendance, and other times, there would just be a detail sent to accomplish this. For a couple of years, I was tasked with being part of the post color guard, which meant we marched in every parade, lol. So in fact, I spent a lot of my life showing respect to our colors. But the fact is, a flag is only a piece of cloth, with little intrinsic value. However, we place a lot of emotional feeling into what our flag represents (at one time in Louisiana, they were talking about making it illegal to beat up a flag burner, punishable by a fine of not more than $25.00).
So, I'm all for flag waiving, if done for the right reasons. If I were of Mexican descent, I would probably display the Mexican flag on say Cinco de Mayo, or other occasions which would appropriately display my connection with my heritage. However, if I were demonstrating to support my illegal presence in the United States, I would think that flaunting my illegal status by angrilly waiving a foreign flag would only incite the voting public against my cause. Of course, this is America, and the right to waive whatever flag you want to is protected, even if you're here illegally. As voters, though, we can simply write our congressional leaders to let them know how we feel about such protests. Maybe make it illegal to beat up angry, foreign flag waiving protesters, punishable by a $25 fine? j/k, hehe
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Raaz Satik
- Taggart Director
- Posts: 2026
- Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 2:40 pm
I agree with most of what you say zap. It's not just a case of illegal immigrants doing a job that americans don't want to do though, even if an american did the same job, once they pay tax's, they don't make enough to live on. The reason the illegals can do this jobs is not so much as because they are illegal as it is due to the fact that they don't pay tax's or social security on their earnings. Once you start a guest worker program I presume they supposed to pay tax's? If so and they don't, then all they've done is switch from being illegal immigrants to tax evaders. If they do pay tax's then they will demand more for the work to cover the tax's which I think would have a significant effect on inflation. Hence the Catch 22.zapitino wrote:... On illegal immigration, the arguments for it seem to revolve around the idea that american citizens are unwilling to do certain jobs, so a cheap labor pool is required to fulfill that need ..... starting something like a guest worker program, where registration starts at our borders
Maybe I am standing on my head and looking at the world upside down - but I see things differently. 
Just because there are illegal immigrants performing low paying work, does not mean that domestic workers would not do the work in their absence. Heck! If Europe has taught us anything, it has taught us this. Market conditions will always bridge the gap and the fields will be picked.
Conversely by expanding the supply of low skilled labor, to chase a relatively fixed number of low paying jobs, downward pressure on wages is created. Illegal immigration has a multiplying effect on the lower economic class. One illegal immigrant accepts a poverty wage, and another citizen is underemployed because the supply of jobs has decreased.
Further because people choose to leave their own country rather than reform its government, illegal immigration is a corrupting influence. In Mexico, the commonly brandished term for people that will run across the border is “pollo” or chicken. Perhaps it is because these folks, with an obvious strength of character to attempt success in a foreign land, have abducted the fight for the mother country.
Illegal immigration is barbaric
. I have known illegal immigrants most of my life, and drank in their shanty camps. It is a miserable experience: zero sanitation, no running water; a fire for heat; a wood pallet for a roof. Don’t visit the colonia after a rainstorm. This is not the way people should live, but because they are marginalized by their illegal status these immigrants have few choices. And crime? Again the most susceptible victim is a person outside the law. Yet we have people that have passed through this crucible marching to defend the privilege for others to wallow after them. To me, they are looking at the world upside down.
Just because there are illegal immigrants performing low paying work, does not mean that domestic workers would not do the work in their absence. Heck! If Europe has taught us anything, it has taught us this. Market conditions will always bridge the gap and the fields will be picked.
Conversely by expanding the supply of low skilled labor, to chase a relatively fixed number of low paying jobs, downward pressure on wages is created. Illegal immigration has a multiplying effect on the lower economic class. One illegal immigrant accepts a poverty wage, and another citizen is underemployed because the supply of jobs has decreased.
Further because people choose to leave their own country rather than reform its government, illegal immigration is a corrupting influence. In Mexico, the commonly brandished term for people that will run across the border is “pollo” or chicken. Perhaps it is because these folks, with an obvious strength of character to attempt success in a foreign land, have abducted the fight for the mother country.
Illegal immigration is barbaric
. I have known illegal immigrants most of my life, and drank in their shanty camps. It is a miserable experience: zero sanitation, no running water; a fire for heat; a wood pallet for a roof. Don’t visit the colonia after a rainstorm. This is not the way people should live, but because they are marginalized by their illegal status these immigrants have few choices. And crime? Again the most susceptible victim is a person outside the law. Yet we have people that have passed through this crucible marching to defend the privilege for others to wallow after them. To me, they are looking at the world upside down.Keep your sharpened steel sword, this wooden one will be all I need!
Very well thought-out post, zapitino. Thank you for your opinion.
But down to business:
This very thing happened in the early 1970s in Denmark; we'd find ourselves unable to fill all the crap jobs such as cleaning toilets at schools, and so forth. Our solution was to provide greencards to foreigners from Turkey, Pakistan, etc. and invite them to come stay in Denmark. This was all fine and dandy -- they introduced a lot to Denmark and their culture introduced the notions of garlic and many of them opened up small shops.
The problem began when uncontrolled immigration to Denmark with these middle-easterners taking to crime as they refused to integrate. They are not to be confused with the original generation who came to Denmark in the 70s; yet, they are. The vast majority of crime is from this minority -- many of whom from other parts of the middle-east and Africa: Iran, Iraq, Somalia, etc.
Unfortunately, the end-result of this rampant immigration -- the one sanctioned by the government in the 70s AND the subsequent illegal immigration -- has resulted in a lot of moochers on the government welfare; many of these people are unemployed. Why? Because why earn minimum-wage and work when you can earn just about the same and not work at all.
But down to business:
This very thing happened in the early 1970s in Denmark; we'd find ourselves unable to fill all the crap jobs such as cleaning toilets at schools, and so forth. Our solution was to provide greencards to foreigners from Turkey, Pakistan, etc. and invite them to come stay in Denmark. This was all fine and dandy -- they introduced a lot to Denmark and their culture introduced the notions of garlic and many of them opened up small shops.
The problem began when uncontrolled immigration to Denmark with these middle-easterners taking to crime as they refused to integrate. They are not to be confused with the original generation who came to Denmark in the 70s; yet, they are. The vast majority of crime is from this minority -- many of whom from other parts of the middle-east and Africa: Iran, Iraq, Somalia, etc.
Unfortunately, the end-result of this rampant immigration -- the one sanctioned by the government in the 70s AND the subsequent illegal immigration -- has resulted in a lot of moochers on the government welfare; many of these people are unemployed. Why? Because why earn minimum-wage and work when you can earn just about the same and not work at all.
If it moves, shoot it;
If it doesn't move, shoot it anyway - it might move later.
Don't tell me americans are unwilling to do the work, I've done it..... but I cannit afford to raise a family on hte measly wages they offer.... now if i was one of the immingrats that cone do the work I could.... when you pack 5 or so families in the same house they can afford the rent and utilities and have a chit load of money to send back to mexico..... try doing that as a single parent!!!!!!
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DagnyTaggart
- Posts: 340
- Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 11:06 pm
sure as an example from my history. work two minimum wage jobs at near full time and bingo. 60-70 hours a week at subway and night stocking a grocery store. came away with a couple grand in a little over 2 months.RoadTrash wrote:Don't tell me americans are unwilling to do the work, I've done it..... but I cannit afford to raise a family on hte measly wages they offer.... now if i was one of the immingrats that cone do the work I could.... when you pack 5 or so families in the same house they can afford the rent and utilities and have a chit load of money to send back to mexico..... try doing that as a single parent!!!!!!
that was my summer "vacation"
and i think if any immigrants are hardcore enough to work here and survive (without gov help), then they are americans at heart. however, nothing wrong with denying them the benefits that normal citizens get. let them work here, but at a higher cost
extra taxes to pay for regulation and whatever else, deny them welfare and social security, no right to vote, and certainly no court rights. a right to a trial by jury applys only to citizens yes? otherwise we should have the right to deport the immigrants whenever we wish and at the judgement of the police or judge at the location. its a matter of determining whether or not the cost to deport the guy outweighs the benefit he is to our society. and if he is a benefit to our society, then we do want him in our society yes?
oh and as far as flags and nationalities etc.... myself for example im a solid american. but i regard myself as half germanic half english with a gaelic heart. kinda weird i suppose. but for example reading roman history and walking around during a roman legion reenactment doesnt make me less of an american. just like having mexican flags, eating texmex food, and speaking spanish doesnt neccesarily mean they are anti american..... what culture you are doesnt determine your nationality. esp for america, we have all kinds of different cultures everywhere. are the people in china town not loyal to america? i view this as more of a "lets move to america but keep our mexican culture intact" sort of thing.
Yes but you do understand that illegal immigrants receive most of the traditional governmental privileges of citizens plus some added one’s we don’t. Let’s say I break my leg and that I am poor. If I’m a citizen, the hospital that treats me can claim recompense and drive me deeper into poverty. If I am an illegal alien, the hospital cannot (legally) turn me away, and yet there is no mechanism to hold the illegal alien financially accountable. The illegal alien receives better health services than the impoverished legitimate citizen.DagnyTaggart wrote:and i think if any immigrants are hardcore enough to work here and survive (without gov help), then they are americans at heart. however, nothing wrong with denying them the benefits that normal citizens get.
It goes deeper, but I'll spare you the wind.
DT we know you well enough to know you don’t have a German flag in your closet that you break out anytime you want to parade against a US policy…DagnyTaggart wrote:myself for example I’m a solid American. but I regard myself as half Germanic half English with a Gaelic heart. kinda weird I suppose. but for example reading roman history and walking around during a roman legion reenactment doesn’t make me less of an American.
Using a foreign flag in a protest can be taken to mean so many things.
- “I am revolting against the entrenched government and signal my allegiance to (Mexico).”
- “(Mexico) is on the righteous side of this issue (illegal immigration) and the entrenched government should harmonize policies.”
- “We disenfranchised (Mexicans) in a foreign land appeal to (Mexico) to invade and restore our rights.”
- “The sacrifices of the people creating this entrenched government mean nothing, the (Mexican) sacrifice is what should be held in honor.
- "Let’s be honest we (Mexicans) already seized the reigns from the entrenched government, see look I am openly declaring it.”
Keep your sharpened steel sword, this wooden one will be all I need!
See this is how Mexican nationals expect protest to be dealt with…
SAN SALVADOR ATENCO, Mexico (Reuters 5/4/06) - Over 1,000 riot police firing tear gas flooded into a town at the edge of Mexico City on Thursday to hunt for agents taken hostage in a riot sparked by flower traders that left at least one dead.
National television images showed police clad in body armor sweeping into the frequently fractious farming town of San Salvador Atenco, 15 miles north of Mexico City, and hauling off bleeding protesters.
Violence exploded in the area on Wednesday when police arrested roadside traders suspected of illegally selling flowers. Dozens more were arrested later in the day.
A 14-year-old boy was killed in the rioting and some reports, denied by the government, say a police officer also lost his life.
Fifty police officers were injured, 11 seriously, state Gov. Enrique Pena Nieto said, and dozens were arrested.
During the chaos, angry demonstrators cornered 11 policemen and took them hostage. The protesters released several of the men in the early hours of Thursday morning but some reports said up to six of them had not been found yet.
On Thursday, police, backed up by low-flying helicopters, over-ran roadblocks set up by the demonstrators, who were demanding the release of flower sellers and leaders arrested in raids and running street battles on Wednesday.
The speed, size and early hour of the operation seemed to take the town by surprise, and resistance was limited to small groups throwing Molotov cocktails.
Police used strips of cloth as makeshift masks against the swirling clouds of tear gas, and stormed houses to pull out residents in a hunt for protest leaders.
On Wednesday, mobs of protesters burned tires on a main road and lobbed stones and gasoline bombs at some 400 policemen. Rioters kicked and stamped on two apparently unconscious policemen.
The riot was the latest outbreak of violence to hit Mexico as the country approaches a July 2 presidential election. A surge in drug-cartel bloodshed has spread to coastal resorts like Acapulco and two people were killed in April when armed police tried to break up a steelworkers strike.
Presidential spokesman Ruben Aguilar told reporters on Thursday the violence in Atenco was the work of a small group of people opposed to democracy and not a sign that the country was slipping into further violence.
"I can categorically assure you there is no lack of governability here" he said.
San Salvador Atenco is known for its machete-armed peasants, who five years ago blocked President Vicente Fox's plan to build a new airport there with a standoff that lasted several days.
Zapatista rebel leader Subcomandante Marcos, who headed a brief but bloody uprising in the Indian dominated southern state of Chiapas in 1994, said his guerrilla army was on red-alert following the clashes.
Leftist Marcos, who is on a tour of Mexico City, has hardened his political stance in recent days, calling for the overthrow of government and vowing to expel foreign capital from the country.
Television images on Wednesday showed some protesters shouting pro-Zapatista slogans.
SAN SALVADOR ATENCO, Mexico (Reuters 5/4/06) - Over 1,000 riot police firing tear gas flooded into a town at the edge of Mexico City on Thursday to hunt for agents taken hostage in a riot sparked by flower traders that left at least one dead.
National television images showed police clad in body armor sweeping into the frequently fractious farming town of San Salvador Atenco, 15 miles north of Mexico City, and hauling off bleeding protesters.
Violence exploded in the area on Wednesday when police arrested roadside traders suspected of illegally selling flowers. Dozens more were arrested later in the day.
A 14-year-old boy was killed in the rioting and some reports, denied by the government, say a police officer also lost his life.
Fifty police officers were injured, 11 seriously, state Gov. Enrique Pena Nieto said, and dozens were arrested.
During the chaos, angry demonstrators cornered 11 policemen and took them hostage. The protesters released several of the men in the early hours of Thursday morning but some reports said up to six of them had not been found yet.
On Thursday, police, backed up by low-flying helicopters, over-ran roadblocks set up by the demonstrators, who were demanding the release of flower sellers and leaders arrested in raids and running street battles on Wednesday.
The speed, size and early hour of the operation seemed to take the town by surprise, and resistance was limited to small groups throwing Molotov cocktails.
Police used strips of cloth as makeshift masks against the swirling clouds of tear gas, and stormed houses to pull out residents in a hunt for protest leaders.
On Wednesday, mobs of protesters burned tires on a main road and lobbed stones and gasoline bombs at some 400 policemen. Rioters kicked and stamped on two apparently unconscious policemen.
The riot was the latest outbreak of violence to hit Mexico as the country approaches a July 2 presidential election. A surge in drug-cartel bloodshed has spread to coastal resorts like Acapulco and two people were killed in April when armed police tried to break up a steelworkers strike.
Presidential spokesman Ruben Aguilar told reporters on Thursday the violence in Atenco was the work of a small group of people opposed to democracy and not a sign that the country was slipping into further violence.
"I can categorically assure you there is no lack of governability here" he said.
San Salvador Atenco is known for its machete-armed peasants, who five years ago blocked President Vicente Fox's plan to build a new airport there with a standoff that lasted several days.
Zapatista rebel leader Subcomandante Marcos, who headed a brief but bloody uprising in the Indian dominated southern state of Chiapas in 1994, said his guerrilla army was on red-alert following the clashes.
Leftist Marcos, who is on a tour of Mexico City, has hardened his political stance in recent days, calling for the overthrow of government and vowing to expel foreign capital from the country.
Television images on Wednesday showed some protesters shouting pro-Zapatista slogans.
Keep your sharpened steel sword, this wooden one will be all I need!
It's interesting to note (though I cannot cite any references; but I suppose googling will turn some up) that the Mexican government refuses immigrants from south america and the like. I find this an interesting thing: "sure, go to america -- but don't ever think about coming here".
Hrm...
Hrm...
If it moves, shoot it;
If it doesn't move, shoot it anyway - it might move later.