[ 2008.05.15 03:42:45 ] Petyr Baelich > hong kong was the last free market
[ 2008.05.15 03:42:59 ] Treelox > there are plenty of places, but normally their beer is warm, the bugs carry diseases that can kill you, and the local money takes a wheelbarrow full to buy a loaf of bread
[ 2008.05.15 03:43:14 ] MerNeith > hong kong = lowsec space
[ 2008.05.15 03:43:15 ] Treelox > not even
[ 2008.05.15 03:43:20 ] Selene D'Celeste > terrible
[ 2008.05.15 03:43:24 ] Petyr Baelich > un, no
[ 2008.05.15 03:43:45 ] Treelox > hong kong is so on the ball it is not even funny
[ 2008.05.15 03:43:47 ] MerNeith > its dangerous there in hong kong, too many people go missing
[ 2008.05.15 03:43:58 ] Treelox > even with the tranfer from english to chinese rule
[ 2008.05.15 03:44:23 ] Petyr Baelich > are they still laissez faire, even with the transfer to chinese rule?
[ 2008.05.15 03:44:34 ] Treelox > pretty much
[ 2008.05.15 03:44:37 ] Petyr Baelich > huh
[ 2008.05.15 03:44:44 ] Petyr Baelich > can one emigrate there?
[ 2008.05.15 03:44:53 ] Treelox > chinese governemt was wize to realise that they shouldnt fuck with anything there and ruin it
[ 2008.05.15 03:45:15 ] Petyr Baelich > then why don't they change their own philosophy to mirror it?
[ 2008.05.15 03:45:16 ] Treelox > the only thing the stopped was chinese from outside of hong kong emigrating theire the first few years
[ 2008.05.15 03:45:33 ] Selene D'Celeste > Ever so slowly ...
[ 2008.05.15 03:45:33 ] Treelox > cause that would prove that they made a mistake
[ 2008.05.15 03:45:39 ] Treelox > and that is not something they will ever admit
[ 2008.05.15 03:45:55 ] Petyr Baelich > but they're admitting it by not forcing them to become communists
[ 2008.05.15 03:46:36 ] Treelox > no
[ 2008.05.15 03:47:24 ] Treelox > ithey realise there would be civil unrest if they tried
[ 2008.05.15 03:47:34 ] Treelox > and after tinemen square they arent prepared to do that again
[ 2008.05.15 03:47:51 ] Petyr Baelich > notwithstanding the fact that communism can only be valid if everyone can obtain unlimited resources with zero effort
[ 2008.05.15 03:48:04 ] Treelox > especially considering how hard it would be to subdue outside news coverage of anything that went down in HK
[ 2008.05.15 03:48:37 ] Treelox > all pure forms of governance are impraticle and impossible on a large scale
[ 2008.05.15 03:48:52 ] Petyr Baelich > what about capitalism
[ 2008.05.15 03:49:05 ] Treelox > capitaism isnt a form of governance
[ 2008.05.15 03:49:13 ] Treelox > its is a form of economics
[ 2008.05.15 03:49:14 ] Petyr Baelich > well it is, actually
[ 2008.05.15 03:49:14 ] Selene D'Celeste > <3 tree
[ 2008.05.15 03:49:15 ] Selene D'Celeste > afk
[ 2008.05.15 03:49:19 ] Selene D'Celeste > It's not.
[ 2008.05.15 03:49:21 ] Andunin > anarchy is a pure form of government and works just fine at any scale
[ 2008.05.15 03:49:29 ] Treelox > no it doesnt andunin
[ 2008.05.15 03:49:45 ] Petyr Baelich > oh lord, not another anarcho libertarian
[ 2008.05.15 03:50:02 ] Andunin > where doesn't it?
[ 2008.05.15 03:50:04 ] Treelox > because sooner or later you have ppl who will impose their will through force upoin others in an anarchy, and then it changes into a dictatorship
[ 2008.05.15 03:50:24 ] Andunin > and then the dude gets shot
[ 2008.05.15 03:50:29 ] Petyr Baelich > by whom
[ 2008.05.15 03:50:38 ] Treelox > the new dictator
[ 2008.05.15 03:50:41 ] Treelox > ;
[ 2008.05.15 03:50:42 ] Petyr Baelich > right
[ 2008.05.15 03:50:46 ] Andunin > or some random guy
[ 2008.05.15 03:50:46 ] MerNeith > nite all
[ 2008.05.15 03:51:03 ] Treelox > it is not in the nature of our speciese to live within a single extreme
[ 2008.05.15 03:51:11 ] Andunin > and on a world wide scale it would be anarchy among dictatorships...
[ 2008.05.15 03:51:11 ] Treelox > we by our very nature are diverse
[ 2008.05.15 03:51:22 ] Treelox > which is not "pure" anarchy
[ 2008.05.15 03:51:23 ] Petyr Baelich > no such thing as a "nature of our species"
[ 2008.05.15 03:51:26 ] Petyr Baelich > we have free will
[ 2008.05.15 03:51:35 ] Treelox > exactly the nature i refer too
[ 2008.05.15 03:51:47 ] Andunin > and dreams don't forget dreams
[ 2008.05.15 03:51:53 ] Petyr Baelich > well that's not nature, that's its opposite, volition
[ 2008.05.15 03:52:48 ] BlackGenius > my dreams forget dreams
[ 2008.05.15 03:52:53 ] BlackGenius > nature is for hippies
[ 2008.05.15 03:52:56 ] BlackGenius > and anarchy doesny work
[ 2008.05.15 03:52:59 ] Treelox > do androids dream of electric sheep?
[ 2008.05.15 03:52:59 ] Andunin > so now i'm bored and am randomly goign to spout out things that may be related such as chaos theory ftw
[ 2008.05.15 03:53:00 ] BlackGenius > there, settled that
[ 2008.05.15 03:53:24 ] Mining Bunnz > arrr
[ 2008.05.15 03:53:37 ] Andunin > one day we will all be heat....
[ 2008.05.15 03:53:41 ] Petyr Baelich > how is wealth distributed under anarchy, andunin?
[ 2008.05.15 03:53:46 ] BlackGenius > no, we will never be heat
[ 2008.05.15 03:54:25 ] Andunin > it doesn't hence it is anarchy
there would be no stable currency[ 2008.05.15 03:54:40 ] Petyr Baelich > exactly
[ 2008.05.15 03:54:55 ] Petyr Baelich > why would you advocate that?
[ 2008.05.15 03:55:11 ] Andunin > because i don't like the man?
[ 2008.05.15 03:55:37 ] BlackGenius > but the man is needed
[ 2008.05.15 03:55:55 ] Andunin > nuh uh
[ 2008.05.15 03:56:04 ] Treelox > all that annarchy would do, is cause "the man" to no longer be in some far off city from you, and instead be the neighboor who has more greed and better means of force than you....end anarchy
[ 2008.05.15 03:56:11 ] Petyr Baelich > 3 branches of government are needed; Military, Police, and Courts
[ 2008.05.15 03:56:23 ] Petyr Baelich > and nothing else
[ 2008.05.15 03:56:43 ] Amarr Citizen 155 > otherwise guys like you would have no one to blame
[ 2008.05.15 03:56:45 ] Treelox > well police and military can and are combined in many countries
[ 2008.05.15 03:56:48 ] Amarr Citizen 155 > if there was no man
[ 2008.05.15 03:57:04 ] Andunin > well since we are naturally social animals i would consider anarchy to be small groups of people fighting not everybody on their own for themselves
[ 2008.05.15 03:57:19 ] Petyr Baelich > why do they need to fight at all?
[ 2008.05.15 03:57:20 ] Treelox > you really as far as that line of logic is concerned petyr, only need the enforces and the arbitrators of the law/rules
[ 2008.05.15 03:57:40 ] Amarr Citizen 155 > pop control
[ 2008.05.15 03:57:43 ] Amarr Citizen 155 > and human nature
[ 2008.05.15 03:57:54 ] Petyr Baelich > humans don't have a "nature"
[ 2008.05.15 03:57:56 ] Andunin > because they want more resources
[ 2008.05.15 03:57:57 ] Petyr Baelich > they're humans
[ 2008.05.15 03:57:58 ] Treelox > and to fix the food problem
[ 2008.05.15 03:58:15 ] Treelox > yes they do have a nature
[ 2008.05.15 03:58:16 ] Treelox > an nature of free will
[ 2008.05.15 03:58:18 ] Amarr Citizen 155 > humans dont have a nature, umm wow
[ 2008.05.15 03:58:19 ] Treelox > that is their nature
[ 2008.05.15 03:58:36 ] Andunin > we just gave our instinct a fancy name
[ 2008.05.15 03:58:38 ] Petyr Baelich > the point is you chose what to do with your life
[ 2008.05.15 03:58:46 ] Petyr Baelich > it isn't chosen for you, like animals
[ 2008.05.15 03:59:05 ] Andunin > depends on the social hiearchy
[ 2008.05.15 03:59:07 ] Petyr Baelich > you can think or not think
[ 2008.05.15 03:59:18 ] Andunin > same with the animals...
[ 2008.05.15 03:59:19 ] Amarr Citizen 155 > animals cant do the same?
[ 2008.05.15 03:59:42 ] Petyr Baelich > not very many cats make fishing poles
[ 2008.05.15 03:59:58 ] Treelox > petyr i think you need to look at the definition of nature
[ 2008.05.15 04:00:13 ] Andunin > the sad part is i'm making up everything i am saying
[ 2008.05.15 04:00:55 ] Petyr Baelich > 1. the material world, esp. as surrounding humankind and existing independently of human activities.2. the natural world as it exists without human beings or civilization.
[ 2008.05.15 04:01:25 ] Petyr Baelich > dictionary.com
[ 2008.05.15 04:01:45 ] Treelox > yeah keep going down the list
[ 2008.05.15 04:02:08 ] Petyr Baelich > why? I believe that definition to be true
[ 2008.05.15 04:02:12 ] Andunin > what do they define as human nature?
[ 2008.05.15 04:02:42 ] Treelox > try definition 18
[ 2008.05.15 04:02:45 ] Treelox > human nature is to be self willed
[ 2008.05.15 04:03:18 ] Petyr Baelich > I reject that definition of "nature", but I agree that humans have free will
[ 2008.05.15 04:03:19 ] Treelox > unless ofc you think that "self willed" is a nurtured attribute in humans
[ 2008.05.15 04:03:33 ] Petyr Baelich > and it is intrinsic to being human
[ 2008.05.15 04:03:44 ] Petyr Baelich > are you OK with me using intrinsic instead of nature?
[ 2008.05.15 04:03:45 ] Treelox > ahh great selective use of the dictionary
[ 2008.05.15 04:03:48 ] Treelox > i love when that happens
[ 2008.05.15 04:04:18 ] Petyr Baelich > well gee.... people write dictionaries
[ 2008.05.15 04:04:25 ] Treelox > sure intrinsic
[ 2008.05.15 04:04:28 ] Andunin > isn't human nature just a fancy name for instinct?
[ 2008.05.15 04:04:30 ] Treelox > read dictionary.com
[ 2008.05.15 04:04:34 ] Petyr Baelich > is something more valid because someone else wrote it and you didn't?
[ 2008.05.15 04:04:34 ] Treelox > 1st definition
[ 2008.05.15 04:04:50 ] Treelox > 1. belonging to a thing by its very nature
[ 2008.05.15 04:04:54 ] Treelox > hmm nature once again
[ 2008.05.15 04:05:25 ] Petyr Baelich > saying that humans have free will "by nature" invalidates the concept of free will
[ 2008.05.15 04:05:29 ] Petyr Baelich > it's a logical fallacy
[ 2008.05.15 04:05:35 ] Treelox > no
[ 2008.05.15 04:05:50 ] Treelox > we are hardwired, by nature/evolution, to have freewill
[ 2008.05.15 04:06:07 ] Treelox > unless ofc you want to tell me that the world is 5000yrs old
[ 2008.05.15 04:06:16 ] Petyr Baelich > I think this is a very silly issue of semantics to be arguing over
[ 2008.05.15 04:06:24 ] Andunin > we don;t have free will -.-
[ 2008.05.15 04:06:42 ] Petyr Baelich > give the trolling a rest, andunin
[ 2008.05.15 04:06:53 ] Treelox > the definitions define the semantics, its your refusal to acknowledge those given that i dispute
[ 2008.05.15 04:07:13 ] Andunin > everything we do is based on instinct we just have the ability to remove most of the things that get in the way of ours
[ 2008.05.15 04:07:14 ] Petyr Baelich > then I accept your definition of nature, in the way you're using it
[ 2008.05.15 04:07:24 ] Petyr Baelich > but it's not the word I would use
[ 2008.05.15 04:07:27 ] Treelox > which is a proper way to use it
[ 2008.05.15 04:07:30 ] Petyr Baelich > I don't like the connotation
[ 2008.05.15 04:07:34 ] Treelox > that is your choice
[ 2008.05.15 04:08:04 ] Treelox > but it is not a wrong use of the word, that is just a self impossed bias of your own, nature
[ 2008.05.15 04:08:04 ] Treelox >
[ 2008.05.15 04:08:06 ] tornpain > free will debate is mostly a glass half full / half empty determination
[ 2008.05.15 04:08:30 ] Petyr Baelich > in order to debate free will you must first possess it
[ 2008.05.15 04:08:31 ] tornpain > aka die you dirty pessimists
[ 2008.05.15 04:08:50 ] tornpain > that's like saying you have to believe in god to debate religion
[ 2008.05.15 04:08:52 ] tornpain > aka completely and logically fallacious
[ 2008.05.15 04:09:01 ] Andunin > can we go back to anarchy?
[ 2008.05.15 04:09:04 ] Petyr Baelich > whatever; actually it's like saying you must first have letters in order to form words.
[ 2008.05.15 04:09:09 ] Petyr Baelich > anyway, night
[ 2008.05.15 04:09:09 ] tornpain > ok. who's got hte biggest stick?
