I've been too busy in real life, in school, at work, etc to normally post on this thread in any particular length, but I have some free time and figured what the hell.
I know I find myself thinking of things outside our little box we call earth. I wonder what else is out there, what distant stars are being born and which are collapsing into black holes; but the most intriguing question is that of whether we are alone or not in the universe. I am curious to hear the thoughts and reasonings of those others in our corporation...please spoil me. But before that I will lend my own thoughts on the subject.
To me, it makes sense that life exists outside our box. It may not exist in our own solar system, but somewhere out there, it does. If you take the time to sit back and ponder the scope of the entire universe, it just does not make sense that we would be alone: there are billions upon billions of stars in our galaxy; there are billions upon billions of galaxies in our universe; if you take even a small percentage of all the possible planets existing in those areas and agree this small percentage of planets would be inhabitable, there are still millions of possible planets similar enough to ours that could harbor life. Now, speaking on a purely scientific standpoint, there is life here. So why would life not exist in conditions similar to ours somewhere else in the universe?
Taking all of that into consideration, it brings me to my ending point. If indeed there are other races of aliens beyond our wildest imaginations living outside our little box, what does this mean about our lives and the universe? I once read somewhere a quote which I think hits the nail on the head: (not a direct quote as I don't remember it exactly) "There is no meaning of life, we live, we die, and in the end - the worms win". If you think about other aliens existing, it lends to the notion that the "Big Bang" is a fact, and that the universe trully is random - there is no 'reason' for things happening, it is all about luck; and finally, there is no God. I'm just presenting one view point on the matter, I happen to be Agnostic as of late and as such I don't deny or really confirm the existence of God; I am curious as to what anyone else has to say on the subject matter...I always seek to broaden my horizons.
The concept of life outside our little box
In his book, The Blind Watchmaker, Richard Dawkins presents a very compelling argument about the probability of life developing on this planet and evolving as quickly as it did. He extends his theory to conclude that life exists in a great many places in this universe. He counters, point by point, all the specious claims made by creationists that evolution is too complicated to be possible. I highly recommend this book. The subject matter is intriguing, and it's impressive and instructional just to see how Dawkins' mind works. The man is brilliant. Yes, he operates on a great number of assumptions, but the deductive reasoning that follows from these assumptions will blow you away.
I've become a very firm believer in a higher intelligence having a hand in the universe, if not just Earth. And the more I continue my research of life and things in general, the more scientific evidence I'm made aware of. For example, the map of constellations of the sky if laid north to north over the globe of the earth seem to match the nature of the nation upon which a particular constellation rests. Draco the Dragon lays on China, Ursa the Bear on Russia, Leo on the UK, Aquila the Eagle on the US, Aries the Ram on Greece, etc. Then there's the mystery of the Great Pyramid in Egypt. The number, shape and size of its stones, its inner chambers and cap pointing to the North Star, its geographical position on Earth marking a signicant intersection between three major continents, its curving exterior matching the exact degree of curvature of Earth, just to name a few. Then there's a large boat currently stuck in ice in the Ararat Mountains matching the description of Noah's Ark complete with gopher wood and tar inside and out, with cages large enough for elephants. How did it get up there? Theory and philosophy are one thing, but I prefer scientific evidence when it's available.
I just finished reading an essay on The Myth of Sisyphus by Albert Camus...he brings up quite a few good arguments against there being a higher power. Those issues that you talked about are interesting, but civilization back in ancient egypt was not nearly as primitive as many people thought it to be - there are many reported cases of surgery being done back then, just to name an example. I personally feel that with the right brain power / manpower (which we know they had plenty of), it is quite feasible for the Great Pyramid to have been built as it was. I don't think it would make any sense for a God to make His people suffer under a pharoah to build a monument that would be for worship of a person that was believed to be a God himself (the pharoah).
Back to Camus: he brings up an interesting paradox - either God is not all powerful and man is responsible (has free will) for evil or man is not responsible and God is all powerful / responsible for evil. I doubt many Christians would want to say that God is 'responsible' for evil and all the suffering that goes on within our planets walls, and I also doubt that any Christian would want to believe that God isn't all powerful. I would also like to state that I am just using Christianity as an example because it illustrates my point as to inconsistencies within religion as a concept. In my not so very humble opinion, I have become a firm believer that relihion is just a mere social construct and nothing more. I mean think about it, if _you_ were a caveman with nothing better to do then kill animals, eat, sleep, and do you business on cave walls - wouldn't _you_ try to come up with something beyond yourself to help look past why life was so pitiful? I know I would. In my opinion, it's much easier to live a moral life and live it to the fullest than to throw one's hands up in the air and say "oh well, I'll deal because I'll goto Heaven when I die."
I'm just opening this up to debate...so please don't think I am taking a shot at you in anyway...I just like to express my opinions / hear those of others
Back to Camus: he brings up an interesting paradox - either God is not all powerful and man is responsible (has free will) for evil or man is not responsible and God is all powerful / responsible for evil. I doubt many Christians would want to say that God is 'responsible' for evil and all the suffering that goes on within our planets walls, and I also doubt that any Christian would want to believe that God isn't all powerful. I would also like to state that I am just using Christianity as an example because it illustrates my point as to inconsistencies within religion as a concept. In my not so very humble opinion, I have become a firm believer that relihion is just a mere social construct and nothing more. I mean think about it, if _you_ were a caveman with nothing better to do then kill animals, eat, sleep, and do you business on cave walls - wouldn't _you_ try to come up with something beyond yourself to help look past why life was so pitiful? I know I would. In my opinion, it's much easier to live a moral life and live it to the fullest than to throw one's hands up in the air and say "oh well, I'll deal because I'll goto Heaven when I die."
I'm just opening this up to debate...so please don't think I am taking a shot at you in anyway...I just like to express my opinions / hear those of others
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Lonagan Nash
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2003 12:50 pm
I guess this is a good place to try this one again.
http://www.philosophers.co.uk/games/god.htm
Flawed in a few ways but interesting nevertheless.
I take Calvin and Hobbes view that the proof that intelligence exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us yet.
http://www.philosophers.co.uk/games/god.htm
Flawed in a few ways but interesting nevertheless.
I take Calvin and Hobbes view that the proof that intelligence exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us yet.
"Vanity kills. It don't pay bills."
ABC, Vanity Kills, How to be a Zillionaire.
ABC, Vanity Kills, How to be a Zillionaire.
Well, first off, I feel that aliens have visited our planet. I think they are just studying us at the moment, possibly in peace, possibly in aggression. Even if I am wrong there, just because aliens exist haven't tried to 'contact' us, does not mean they do not exist. If you think about it, even with a couple billion years of evolution ahead of us, it does not mean that they necessarily a.) want to find other life b.) are intelligent enough to c.) have the technology to do so. The same thing can be said for time travel - if it is possible why hasn't anyone come back in time? Well truth be told, given how that would work _if_ it did work, it'd be very hard for them to pinpoint our reality here; that is another discussion alltogether though. I just couldn't imagine our vast universe not holding a single spec of other life.Lonagan Nash wrote:I guess this is a good place to try this one again.
http://www.philosophers.co.uk/games/god.htm
Flawed in a few ways but interesting nevertheless.
I take Calvin and Hobbes view that the proof that intelligence exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us yet.
Musty, concerning the issue of a God being in control of Earth or not, it has confused many. The book of Genesis is quite clear though stating God's design "...let them (man) have dominon over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing..." After this passage is the account of the events in the Garden of Eden. Here mankind chooses to partake of evil, and God honors their choice, not going back on His word. Still today, all evil, even all the casualties from so-called "acts of God" come from mankind's choices. Choices to not share food with starving children in poorer countries, to gamble away paychecks instead of invest in cures for cancer and aids, to permit the building of weak structures that won't withstand floods, strong winds or earthquakes, to go to war rather than find ways to stay at peace. Or to play computer games rather than volunteering your time at the orphanage to help be a father to children who've lost their parents.
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Elithiomel
- Posts: 915
- Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2003 6:29 am
Being a scientist myself I have taken half a dozen evolution classes in my undergraduate studies. I have been awestruck time and again as a professor states an unknown in the events of evolution, as we know it. The why and the how of a specific event being totally mystical and unknown. For example the evolution of insect wings, which are expensive and difficult to make. What is the transitional phase from none winged to winged insects? What is the appendage that is a nonfunctional wing which later turns into a functional wing? What muscles/tendons or whatever turned into the driving force for flapping the wings? Where is the fossil or the living link between fully developed wings and non-functional wings? Truth is we don’t know. There are two hotly debated theories on the subject but neither one has evidence to back it up. Another unknown that is hotly debated is the existence of life. How did life or living entities come to exist from non-living matter? Life begets life, so how did matter begat life? Unfortunately we have not been able to elucidate the reactions or the happenings that produced living organisms from non-living matter.
The theory of evolution also has paradoxes (altruistic behavior, appearance of sexes in species, no ‘Darwinian Demon’ present, the Cambrian and Pre-Cambrian explosions, just to name a few) some of which can be explained some remain enigmas.
There is reason to believe life exists on other planets. We do not have substantial evidence that these life forms are capable of space travel. Thus the idea that ‘aliens’ have visited the Earth and do not wish to make contact with us is yet to be documented or proven.
I believe Golda is correct concerning the ills of the world, and the ‘evils’ therein. Most of the horrible predicaments humans find themselves in are inevitably connected with the actions or choices of humans. The logic of ‘God doesn’t exist because I’m suffering today (or there is suffering today)’ is faulty. Presupposing there is a God. We are his creations, and He is omniscient and has such qualities as all knowing, logical, loving, and ability to see into the future. Why then would he not allow us to see the consequences of our actions? What would we be like if our minds never introduced pain to us? I would have burned myself alive many times over before I finished puberty. Thus I am alive today, happily married, educated, and able to pen this thought because God allowed me to suffer as a child and I learned not to jump into fires. I find it fortunate that God does allow us to see the reactions of others and of things when we act upon them. What would we be like if we could not feel or see or learn what happens when we do something stupid? Harmful? Hurtful? Psychotic? Again presupposing there is a God and he wants the best for us, wouldn’t he allow trials and suffering to enter our lives so that we would be all the more wiser, stronger, and more able to survive? And if He created us, why wouldn’t He create others on other planets? If He is a creator, wouldn’t he do just that: Create worlds and life forms?
The Fact is that we cannot prove there is a supreme being, or that there isn’t one. In my evolution classes the evidences shown me confirmed my own belief in God. However these same facts and events confirmed in my peers the exact opposite idea that there is not God. I have resolved in my own mind that my God is a God of science. He created this world using laws of science, some of which we humans have learned and discovered. I believe He created diversity on Earth using evolution as a tool.
Time travel is interesting. Don’t think too much about it though.
The theory of evolution also has paradoxes (altruistic behavior, appearance of sexes in species, no ‘Darwinian Demon’ present, the Cambrian and Pre-Cambrian explosions, just to name a few) some of which can be explained some remain enigmas.
There is reason to believe life exists on other planets. We do not have substantial evidence that these life forms are capable of space travel. Thus the idea that ‘aliens’ have visited the Earth and do not wish to make contact with us is yet to be documented or proven.
I believe Golda is correct concerning the ills of the world, and the ‘evils’ therein. Most of the horrible predicaments humans find themselves in are inevitably connected with the actions or choices of humans. The logic of ‘God doesn’t exist because I’m suffering today (or there is suffering today)’ is faulty. Presupposing there is a God. We are his creations, and He is omniscient and has such qualities as all knowing, logical, loving, and ability to see into the future. Why then would he not allow us to see the consequences of our actions? What would we be like if our minds never introduced pain to us? I would have burned myself alive many times over before I finished puberty. Thus I am alive today, happily married, educated, and able to pen this thought because God allowed me to suffer as a child and I learned not to jump into fires. I find it fortunate that God does allow us to see the reactions of others and of things when we act upon them. What would we be like if we could not feel or see or learn what happens when we do something stupid? Harmful? Hurtful? Psychotic? Again presupposing there is a God and he wants the best for us, wouldn’t he allow trials and suffering to enter our lives so that we would be all the more wiser, stronger, and more able to survive? And if He created us, why wouldn’t He create others on other planets? If He is a creator, wouldn’t he do just that: Create worlds and life forms?
The Fact is that we cannot prove there is a supreme being, or that there isn’t one. In my evolution classes the evidences shown me confirmed my own belief in God. However these same facts and events confirmed in my peers the exact opposite idea that there is not God. I have resolved in my own mind that my God is a God of science. He created this world using laws of science, some of which we humans have learned and discovered. I believe He created diversity on Earth using evolution as a tool.
Time travel is interesting. Don’t think too much about it though.
GL, HF, KA, DD!
Good points, Shaz. And to add, there exists quite a bit of room in creationist philosophy to allow for evolution - they do not contradict one another. The Big Bang theory for example, simply points to the fact and place and time of God's creation of the Universe. The only variable being whether God created the universe or it came out of nothing. The Bible does allow a lot of time, perhaps billions of years, for all kinds of life to change, mutate, evolve after Earth becomes a planet. Genesis 1:2 "...and the Earth became without form and void..." indicating that it changed over a period of time. (Interesting to note that some try to use evolution as proof there is no God when in fact it does no such thing.)
Shaz, you bring up some good points, but if I may comment:
First off, evolution is an _extremely_ slow process. If you think about it, its all about trial and error. Some babies are born with defects, those do not survive. Some are born with extremely keen senses, or brain potential, etc. The strongest survive. Qualities that are favorable or helpful to a species in any way will continue on to the next generation. You also must take into account that we are constantly bombarded by radioactive waves from the sun. Those waves can cause spontaneous irregularities within the cells in our bodies, but most of the time those cells just die off and we live. Sometimes those cells become cancerous and attack our other cells / multiply. The same principle is in effect. These insects without wings could have existed for a long time; one day some kind of freakish mutation causes an insect to be born with wings; that insect then goes and mates with another and their offspring has wings. Thus the process of evolution has surmounted the odds.
If you sit back and take a long look at thing, it makes sense. We as a human race have evolved slightly over recorded history. We have become taller, and certain features have become more prominent / some have become less. That is in a few thousand years. Look at skeletons of pre-historic humans. They were much shorter, and their skulls resembled that of a monkey much moreso than ours today. How does one explain these changes? Evolution. Our planet has been here for 5 _billion_ years. That is a lot of thousands-of-years segments for these subtle changes to occur. I admit, when I was younger it was not so easy for me to swallow the bit I am currently stating, but that was because I was raised by avid-Catholics. I have since reformed and questioned my beliefs / views and have come to the conclusion that I was very naive to blindly accept such garbage. Of course, that is my personal opinion, and I don't hold anything against anyone that believe in a God by any means.
I understand we are supposed to learn things from hardship and experience, fine. But those people in the world that perpetually live in horrid suffering do not deserve that. No one does. I refuse to believe that a loving God would let such things happen to people he 'loves'. And the notion that man was created in God's image - that says much about God. That says that God is a heartless and cruel entity. That says that God is greedy and God is Proud. It doesn't make sense. And this may seem petty and insignificant, but why did God create such things as flies and mosquitoes? They do nothing but serve to spread filth, disease, and to torment every walking creature on earth. This simple fact, to me at least, suggests against the idea of a God.
I would like to say that I do believe in an afterlife. I don't think this is the end. But I think it is very curious, that our lives here are supposed to be full of challenges to make us stronger, just so we are allowed to enter the utopia called Heaven? Well I have news for you, Heaven could not possibly be utopia because humans would not / will not _ever_ be able to conform to the ideals of a 'utopia'. The mere concept is so foreign to us, we wouldn't realize it was there if it smacked us in the face. So what happens if we are all sitting in Heaven and get into a fight? That is surely not utopia. And I certainly do not believe that I will change my views just because I am dead. So what will be of me if I ruin this utopia? Will I then be cast to hell? This sounds a lot like The Giver to me, just in an afterlife kind of context.
To close, I didn't mean for this to become a discussion about religion persay, I was more interested in other people's views of other life out in the universe....views from religious and non-religious persons alike. Though, a friendly debate about the existence of a supreme being is always entertaining - so please feel free to refute any statements I have made. 8)
First off, evolution is an _extremely_ slow process. If you think about it, its all about trial and error. Some babies are born with defects, those do not survive. Some are born with extremely keen senses, or brain potential, etc. The strongest survive. Qualities that are favorable or helpful to a species in any way will continue on to the next generation. You also must take into account that we are constantly bombarded by radioactive waves from the sun. Those waves can cause spontaneous irregularities within the cells in our bodies, but most of the time those cells just die off and we live. Sometimes those cells become cancerous and attack our other cells / multiply. The same principle is in effect. These insects without wings could have existed for a long time; one day some kind of freakish mutation causes an insect to be born with wings; that insect then goes and mates with another and their offspring has wings. Thus the process of evolution has surmounted the odds.
If you sit back and take a long look at thing, it makes sense. We as a human race have evolved slightly over recorded history. We have become taller, and certain features have become more prominent / some have become less. That is in a few thousand years. Look at skeletons of pre-historic humans. They were much shorter, and their skulls resembled that of a monkey much moreso than ours today. How does one explain these changes? Evolution. Our planet has been here for 5 _billion_ years. That is a lot of thousands-of-years segments for these subtle changes to occur. I admit, when I was younger it was not so easy for me to swallow the bit I am currently stating, but that was because I was raised by avid-Catholics. I have since reformed and questioned my beliefs / views and have come to the conclusion that I was very naive to blindly accept such garbage. Of course, that is my personal opinion, and I don't hold anything against anyone that believe in a God by any means.
I understand we are supposed to learn things from hardship and experience, fine. But those people in the world that perpetually live in horrid suffering do not deserve that. No one does. I refuse to believe that a loving God would let such things happen to people he 'loves'. And the notion that man was created in God's image - that says much about God. That says that God is a heartless and cruel entity. That says that God is greedy and God is Proud. It doesn't make sense. And this may seem petty and insignificant, but why did God create such things as flies and mosquitoes? They do nothing but serve to spread filth, disease, and to torment every walking creature on earth. This simple fact, to me at least, suggests against the idea of a God.
I would like to say that I do believe in an afterlife. I don't think this is the end. But I think it is very curious, that our lives here are supposed to be full of challenges to make us stronger, just so we are allowed to enter the utopia called Heaven? Well I have news for you, Heaven could not possibly be utopia because humans would not / will not _ever_ be able to conform to the ideals of a 'utopia'. The mere concept is so foreign to us, we wouldn't realize it was there if it smacked us in the face. So what happens if we are all sitting in Heaven and get into a fight? That is surely not utopia. And I certainly do not believe that I will change my views just because I am dead. So what will be of me if I ruin this utopia? Will I then be cast to hell? This sounds a lot like The Giver to me, just in an afterlife kind of context.
To close, I didn't mean for this to become a discussion about religion persay, I was more interested in other people's views of other life out in the universe....views from religious and non-religious persons alike. Though, a friendly debate about the existence of a supreme being is always entertaining - so please feel free to refute any statements I have made. 8)
The consensus among experts seems to be that no significant biological evolution has occurred within the span of recorded history. For example, most anthropologists attribute the change in height to dietary factors. Human civilization is a brief moment on the evolutionary timescale. There has been more genetic mixing as travel has gotten easier, and changes in lifestyle affect development, but mixing and development are very different from the traditional notion of evolution.We as a human race have evolved slightly over recorded history. We have become taller, and certain features have become more prominent / some have become less. That is in a few thousand years.
Suppose a community of Africans relocated to Sweden, as they once did, way way before recorded history. It would take more than a few thousand years for their features and skin tone to change, assuming they only reproduced within their community.
Regarding the after-life, I believe that I will only exist through the cascading effect of my actions on my environment and our society. You might call that immortality (until the next big meteorite hits, at least) but certainly not a sentient existence. Otherwise, my only expectation is to make a lot of worms very satiated -- and maybe give them a little buzz.
Mustafa- Evolution is a theory used to explain speciation, but it is not accepted unanimously (in the science community) as the ‘how’ life appeared on earth and the ‘how’ we humans came about. The evolution of humans is interesting - in a primordial harsh and violent time a speciation occurred and humans were born. But humans are small, weak, and frail compared to their ancestors, and generally unsuited for their time…
With all the ‘missing links’ and the paradoxes there is strong evidence that species on earth evolved from earlier (older) species. OK evolution does occur, and continues to occur in our day. I’m just saying I don’t think this explains why we are here.
As to the option of a supreme being having a Utopia for the good people of earth to supposedly enjoy- Lets think about this for a minute. The ppl who practiced self discipline, obedience, even suffered and worked their asses off and still looked forward to the Utopia they feel promised and destined for are supposed to just walk in and sit down? If you had someone that always obeyed you, wouldn’t you trust and use that person? Even delegate responsibility? In my laziness I would delegate everything I was in charge of to those I could trust. Why be god if you can’t pass the buck of being the Creator to others and go play a computer game for the rest of the day?
Seriously why would God want us stronger if our end is to be simple vegetables on display? If we become stronger and more mentally capable as we progress through this life, wouldn’t God keep His ‘soldiers’ enlisted and keep them busy? I think we’ll all be doing different stuff in the next life. Stuff we each like to do. If you don’t like to sit around and be real lazy then I don’t think your going to be in Utopia, you’ll probably end up being productive and useful in the hereafter. As for me I love being hyper lazy and wasting oodles of time, so Utopia here I come!!
As for ppl suffering in this world… Why do you think God doesn’t help those ppl hurting in this world? I believes He loves them and even if other humans are withholding needed medical supplies or food or whatever God still helps the helpless.
With all the ‘missing links’ and the paradoxes there is strong evidence that species on earth evolved from earlier (older) species. OK evolution does occur, and continues to occur in our day. I’m just saying I don’t think this explains why we are here.
As to the option of a supreme being having a Utopia for the good people of earth to supposedly enjoy- Lets think about this for a minute. The ppl who practiced self discipline, obedience, even suffered and worked their asses off and still looked forward to the Utopia they feel promised and destined for are supposed to just walk in and sit down? If you had someone that always obeyed you, wouldn’t you trust and use that person? Even delegate responsibility? In my laziness I would delegate everything I was in charge of to those I could trust. Why be god if you can’t pass the buck of being the Creator to others and go play a computer game for the rest of the day?
Seriously why would God want us stronger if our end is to be simple vegetables on display? If we become stronger and more mentally capable as we progress through this life, wouldn’t God keep His ‘soldiers’ enlisted and keep them busy? I think we’ll all be doing different stuff in the next life. Stuff we each like to do. If you don’t like to sit around and be real lazy then I don’t think your going to be in Utopia, you’ll probably end up being productive and useful in the hereafter. As for me I love being hyper lazy and wasting oodles of time, so Utopia here I come!!
As for ppl suffering in this world… Why do you think God doesn’t help those ppl hurting in this world? I believes He loves them and even if other humans are withholding needed medical supplies or food or whatever God still helps the helpless.
GL, HF, KA, DD!
I am never quite sure how to respond to someone who believes in "little green men" but not in the God who created them. 8)
Long before this country gave you the right to disagree with me, God gave you the right to disavow him. Neither is without cost however.
Ah yes, God created everything right? So, that means that God created evil? If so, why? If not, who did? Evil is not something one creates any more than one creates the void of space or cold. Just as space is the absence of matter and cold the absence of heat, evil is the absence of God.Mustafa wrote:Back to Camus: he brings up an interesting paradox - either God is not all powerful and man is responsible (has free will) for evil or man is not responsible and God is all powerful / responsible for evil.
Long before this country gave you the right to disagree with me, God gave you the right to disavow him. Neither is without cost however.
Which famous philosopher said, tongue-in-cheek, something to the effect of, "It's a good thing that God created man, else man would have had to create Him."? The religious authority of the day, couldn't really argue with such a statement. At face value, it is an expression of faith.
Just because we can't always explain things does not mean that a scientific explanation does not exist. Our minds crave explanations, order, understanding. When it is beyond our reach, we extrapolate, and that's dangerous business.
Just because we can't always explain things does not mean that a scientific explanation does not exist. Our minds crave explanations, order, understanding. When it is beyond our reach, we extrapolate, and that's dangerous business.
This is going to be a quick response, but I still see no extremely compelling evidence presented pointing to the existence of a God. Sansake - you claim that I believe in aliens but I don't (necessarily) believe in God. What does one have to do with the other? Is one obligated to believe in God because he or she believes in aliens? I think not. And to blatantly say without a doubt that God created aliens and our world without any evidence to support...just doesn't work for me. The mere magnitude of the universe points to the fact that there is other life, it does not, however, point to the existence of a God. The argument that there was nothing before, and God created everything is just as ridiculous as the concept of a being that has existed for all eternity (God) without any explanation of how such an entity could just perpetually exist.
I took that test, and discovered a flaw in their program.Lonagan Nash wrote:I guess this is a good place to try this one again.
http://www.philosophers.co.uk/games/god.htm
Flawed in a few ways but interesting nevertheless.
I take Calvin and Hobbes view that the proof that intelligence exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us yet.
It went like this:
First they ask you (and I am paraphrasing) "If after years of looking, there is no evidence or proof of the existence of the Loch Ness Monster, is it rational to believe in it's non-existence." I answered yes.
Then in a later question, "As long as there is no evidence or proof of the non-existence of God, Atheism is a matter of faith, not reason."
I also answered yes to this. That is where they accused me of being inconsistent. I read the FAQ and this was there reasoning:
I sent this message to them:If you answer "True" to question 10, then you're committed to the view that evidence for the non-existence of Nessie is not required in order to come to the conclusion that the monster does not exist; that is, evidence of absence is not required - rather, in certain circumstances, absence of evidence is enough to conclude that Nessie does not exist. In other words, the fact that there are no compelling arguments or evidence to show that Nessie does not exist (and now we have equivalence with question 14) is not, in and of itself, sufficient to rule out, in principle, a justified belief in Nessie's non-existence.
The fallacy in turning this around comes because you are ignoring all of the evidence in favor:
In other words, because there is no evidence in favor of Nessie existing, it doesn't require evidence for Nessie's Non-existence for it to be rational to believe in it. Again in other words, I don't see any evidence for Nessie's existence, so I don't NEED evidence for Nessie's Non-Existence.
I see overwhelming evidence for God's existence, so I would need concrete and convincing proof of God's non-existence before I would consider it rational to believe in that.
Synedri
First, I didn't mean to pick on you per se and I hope I wasn't taken that way.Mustafa wrote:This is going to be a quick response, but I still see no extremely compelling evidence presented pointing to the existence of a God. Sansake - you claim that I believe in aliens but I don't (necessarily) believe in God. What does one have to do with the other? Is one obligated to believe in God because he or she believes in aliens? I think not. And to blatantly say without a doubt that God created aliens and our world without any evidence to support...just doesn't work for me. The mere magnitude of the universe points to the fact that there is other life, it does not, however, point to the existence of a God. The argument that there was nothing before, and God created everything is just as ridiculous as the concept of a being that has existed for all eternity (God) without any explanation of how such an entity could just perpetually exist.
Yes, I believe in God. Yes, I believe that life exists on other planets, and yes, I believe that God created that too. What I find comical is the propensity to claim that God can't exist because there is no evidence that he does and then require less of other "outsiders". The rationale that life must exist on other planets is what....it's just so BIG? If it's good enough for aliens, it's good enough for God
God may have done nothing more than to create a primordial soup and then walk away to allow things to progress as they would but he still gets the credit. You can take your creation science back as far as you will and the person of faith will always respond, "and that was created by God".
FYI
On the History channel or some 'real' channel on tv there was show on Nessie. Bunch of scientist and people went to the lake and spent a summer trying to find it. Not only did they not find any trace of the monster, but there was not life in the lake. No fishes, and very little plant life. So even if Nessie was alive and in hiding, it was concluded it couldnt survive in the lake of its origin. Then as the people yelled at the guy who put it all together and stormed off home, the guy showed a clip with a 'monster' following him in his boat in the middle of the lake. Perpetuating the myth after it was proved impossible.
On the History channel or some 'real' channel on tv there was show on Nessie. Bunch of scientist and people went to the lake and spent a summer trying to find it. Not only did they not find any trace of the monster, but there was not life in the lake. No fishes, and very little plant life. So even if Nessie was alive and in hiding, it was concluded it couldnt survive in the lake of its origin. Then as the people yelled at the guy who put it all together and stormed off home, the guy showed a clip with a 'monster' following him in his boat in the middle of the lake. Perpetuating the myth after it was proved impossible.
GL, HF, KA, DD!