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Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:00 pm
by Oleksandr
Arakasi Takeda wrote:
Would you show how you can claim anything under the following abstract definition:

http://www.aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/i ... ights.html
The word 'abstract' isn't mine - you and Tolthar are the ones using it; the url you supplied leads to a text which, in my mind, is not an 'abstract' definition, but a very deliberate attempt to create a concrete meaning for the term 'individual rights'.
I think you misunderstood Tolthar then. He said "more abstract" not "abstract."
Also, you seem to have a different meaning for 'abstract'.
Also, it seems that for you 'abstract' is useless in reality. That's wrong according to the meaning prescribed by Objectivism.

Here's a link to clarify what 'abstract' is for Objectivism and me and Tolthar use it:

http://www.aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/abstraction.html
The act of isolation involved [in concept-formation] is a process of abstraction: i.e., a selective mental focus that takes out or separates a certain aspect of reality from all others (e.g., isolates a certain attribute from the entities possessing it, or a certain action from the entities performing it, etc.).
The higher animals are able to perceive entities, motions, attributes, and certain numbers of entities. But what an animal cannot perform is the process of abstraction—of mentally separating attributes, motions or numbers from entities. It has been said that an animal can perceive two oranges or two potatoes, but cannot grasp the concept "two."

So, 'more abstract' meant a higher level concept.

What does 'abstract' mean to you?

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:11 pm
by Tolthar Lockbar
Perhaps you are referring to a floating abstraction? One which can't exist in reality?

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 4:34 pm
by Arakasi Takeda
Oleksandr Quote:
The act of isolation involved [in concept-formation] is a process of abstraction: i.e., a selective mental focus that takes out or separates a certain aspect of reality from all others (e.g., isolates a certain attribute from the entities possessing it, or a certain action from the entities performing it, etc.).
So, 'more abstract' meant a higher level concept.
Tolthar:Perhaps you are referring to a floating abstraction? One which can't exist in reality?
I understand what 'abstraction' is (taking the above definition); what I don't understand from Tolthar's statement is what he believes an 'abstract concept of individual rights' is.

Saying that an 'abstract concept of individual rights' is a 'higher level conception of a rights of an indiviudal, isolated from the entities possessing it' really tells me nothing useful in the context we are talking about (why a State would require a definition of a union law in order to carry out it's purpose of defending individual rights).

I took from his statement that he believes unionization is just a lower level concept subsumed by, and perhaps made obsolete by, its inclusion under the higher level concept of individual rights. But he still hasn't defined what this higher level concept is.

The text Oleksandr linked attempts to defines individual rights as including two distinct concrete concepts, the Right to Life and the Right to Property. The text makes them concrete by _defining_ both of those rights - A right to life is the freedom to take action required by a rational being to sustain, further, fulfill, and enjoy that life...etc.

One assumes that these definitions can be used to drive the specific concrete rights I was describing - Free Speech and Free Association, as these are protections of specific freedoms of action a rational being would require to sustain and enjoy life.

To me, the act of defining these rights is a necessary condition to the function of the State. Without these definitions, the State would not be able to determine what rights an individual has requiring its protection, and what steps are necessary to protect them. Tolthar seems to be implying that the very concept of 'Individual Rights' is sufficient for the State to act. I disagree. In order for the State to act, the State must know _how_ to act, what acts are appropriate, and what its limits are. That is why we have concrete Laws, not abstract concepts at the core of our legal system.

AT

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 4:42 pm
by Tolthar Lockbar
I mentioned redundancy. You got what I meant right. One is subsummed by the other. If you had asked me to define individual rights, I would have linked you what olex did.

The right to free association is within the right to life.

There is only one fundamental right (all the others are its consequences or corollaries): a man's right to his own life.

I could explain this more to you, but Peikoff wrote a book on it. It has to do with what humans are by nature. I'm not gonna take the time to tell you all the logical steps of this. Its in AS and its in a ton of non-fictional writings.

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:03 pm
by Arakasi Takeda
I mentioned redundancy. You got what I meant right. One is subsummed by the other. If you had asked me to define individual rights, I would have linked you what olex did.

The right to free association is within the right to life.

There is only one fundamental right (all the others are its consequences or corollaries): a man's right to his own life.

I could explain this more to you, but Peikoff wrote a book on it. It has to do with what humans are by nature. I'm not gonna take the time to tell you all the logical steps of this. Its in AS and its in a ton of non-fictional writings.
By that logic, _ALL_ written laws are superfluous, because they are all derived from the one fundamental right - The right to life. Are you suggesting we chuck out the entire history of human societal law as uselessly repetitive? To do so, I believe, is to ignore the reality of what a legal system is and how it functions.

AT

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:14 pm
by Tolthar Lockbar
The current legal system is very flawed. They don't base rulings on any constitution, or any law even. They base it on past trials.

check this video to see the flaw in it. The video is opposing anarchism but at 7:55, he starts to cover the current law system and its flaws.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=UpXB0QcC4tA

Its basically very unobjective.

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:52 pm
by Arakasi Takeda
The current legal system is very flawed. They don't base rulings on any constitution, or any law even. They base it on past trials.

check this video to see the flaw in it. The video is opposing anarchism but at 7:55, he starts to cover the current law system and its flaws.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=UpXB0QcC4tA

Its basically very unobjective.
I can't view the video at the moment, because I'm not on my home system, but I will say this -

Western Civilization has a long established history of using legal precedent as part of its justification for court decisions. The practice goes as far back as Ancient Rome in documented cases, and probably even further back then that. Legal precedent is the theory that previous legal cases define how the court has interpreted laws from earlier cases, and has equal strength to the laws themselves in determining the argument of later cases. Really, it's an issue of creating _consistent_ justice over time. Individuals (such as Ron Paul) may argue that the legal precedents decided in some past cases used 'incorrect reasoning', and violated the spirit of particular laws in the court's interpretation, but, having not seen the video, I _speculate_ that it is unlikely Paul's argument is with the concept of legal precedent itself.

I'll try to view the video later to see if my speculation matches his statements :D


AT

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:39 pm
by Oleksandr
Arakasi Takeda wrote:Really, it's an issue of creating _consistent_ justice over time.

AT
I'll interject:

It would be consistent but only so if all previous instances were just. That however has to be a wrong assumption, since it's impossible for all judicial decision to be correct for such long period of time. So, relying on past can't and won't bring consistency as the history has proven.

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:52 pm
by Arakasi Takeda
It would be consistent but only so if all previous instances were just. That however has to be a wrong assumption, since it's impossible for all judicial decision to be correct for such long period of time. So, relying on past can't and won't bring consistency as the history has proven.
There were no value judgement implied by my statement - I was merely outlining the concept of legal precedent. I don't think there is anything that makes it impossible for all judicial decisions to be correct over a long period of time (I would think, in an utopian Randian world, all judicial decisions would come from application of flawless reason, so, theoretically they _could_ always be right), just highly improbable, since we are not dealing with the utopian ideal. But there is also nothing that states that the majority of judical decisions can't be correct, and, therefore, the use of legal precedent is sound. The only question is the level of tolerance in the system (tolerance being used here in it's scientific meaning - the measure of acceptable error) and it's ability to recognize and correct errors when they are discovered.

AT

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 11:46 pm
by Oleksandr
Arakasi Takeda wrote:(I would think, in an utopian Randian world, all judicial decisions would come from application of flawless reason, so, theoretically they _could_ always be right)
AT
Actually, this is another wrong idea about Objectivism. I would like to see you make a quote where Ayn Rand states that a perfect man in her view is flawless and always right.

Because her actual statements aren't like that at all.

Consider Atlas Shrugged, for example, Rearden was a moral perfect man in Ayn Rand views and so were Dagny Taggart, and yet they had held some wrong views for some part of the novel.

The perfect-ness for Ayn Rand is using reason throughout life without exceptions. That doesn't mean that one may not make a wrong conclusion, but it means that to always use reason in all matters based on all the information and context that a man has at his disposal.

Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 3:43 am
by Arakasi Takeda
Actually, this is another wrong idea about Objectivism. I would like to see you make a quote where Ayn Rand states that a perfect man in her view is flawless and always right.

Because her actual statements aren't like that at all.

Consider Atlas Shrugged, for example, Rearden was a moral perfect man in Ayn Rand views and so were Dagny Taggart, and yet they had held some wrong views for some part of the novel.

The perfect-ness for Ayn Rand is using reason throughout life without exceptions. That doesn't mean that one may not make a wrong conclusion, but it means that to always use reason in all matters based on all the information and context that a man has at his disposal.
I was thinking more of the section of Atlas Shrugged where Judge Narragansett is talking to Dagny about writing a treatise on the evils of 'non-objective' law, based on the Galt's philosophy (Objectivism); a law which was completely Objective, and based soley on Reason, can be view (in a simplified manner anyways) as a very mechanistic appraisal of certain premises leading to specific conclusions. In such a mechanistic view, if the cases are sufficiently simple and well presented, there's no reason to believe they would _always_ break down. It would be like arguing in syllogisms. But I'm not going to argue the point, since it's an abstraction of a very simple, perfectly designed case in a fictional treatise. The real world is 'messier', and I know Rand didn't have a completely utopian view of the 'real world'.

AT

Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 4:14 am
by Oleksandr
Arakasi Takeda wrote:But I'm not going to argue the point, since it's an abstraction of a very simple, perfectly designed case in a fictional treatise. The real world is 'messier', and I know Rand didn't have a completely utopian view of the 'real world'.

AT
So you deal away with Reason and create a system based on ... what?

Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 4:34 am
by Arakasi Takeda
Arakasi Takeda wrote:
But I'm not going to argue the point, since it's an abstraction of a very simple, perfectly designed case in a fictional treatise. The real world is 'messier', and I know Rand didn't have a completely utopian view of the 'real world'.

AT
So you deal away with Reason and create a system based on ... what?
Huh? Where exactly did I say I deal away with Reason? I was actually _agreeing_ with your point. Reason is still the model for conducting law, but it isn't always going to be clear cut that courts will achieve the correct answer every time in the real world.

AT
[/quote]

Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:05 am
by Tolthar Lockbar
What is this utopian world you talk about?

Is it one possible by humans? A philosophy based on something that is not possible to humans is a flawed philosophy.

When you say utopian, what are you referring to exactly?

Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:29 pm
by Arakasi Takeda
What is this utopian world you talk about?

Is it one possible by humans? A philosophy based on something that is not possible to humans is a flawed philosophy.

When you say utopian, what are you referring to exactly?
Actually, a Utopia does not necessarily mean an impossible place.

Here is a more exact definition of Utopia:
Utopia - an imaginary and indefinitely remote place of ideal perfection especially in laws, government, and social conditions; an ideal and perfect place or state, where everyone lives in harmony and everything is for the best; or a description of such a place.
Galt's Gulch is a utopian place because it perfectly reflects Rand's vision of a society living in harmony in exact relation to her Objectivist ideals in law, government, and social condition.

AT

Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:01 am
by Oleksandr
Alright, that clears some things for me.

AT,

Your posts have a certain attitude towards Objectivism, which I want to check now. You seem to think that Objectivism is only practical in a society where everybody agrees to Objectivist principles.

That isn't true.

A perfect society for Objectivism isn't a society that have everybody following Objectivist ideas, though that would be good, but not necessary for a creation of a perfect Objectivist Capitalist society.

There seem to be a problem with regards to the standard of perfectness here.
For example, what is your standard here?

According to Objectivist it is definitely not Galt's Gultch where everybody was a productive genius. People of lesser intellectual powers can be part of such "perfect" Objectivist world.

Consider, Ayn Rand words herself:

From ARI website
"Does Objectivism hold that all individuals have something valuable to contribute? What about people who lack creativity or ability? Would they fit into a pure capitalist society?"
The answer she gives is "Yes." I think there is a more clear answer in her Q&A which Tolthar might have, so if you ask him he might provide it. Meanwhile the quote from ARI center is:
"Intelligence is not an exclusive monopoly of genius; it is an attribute of all men, and the differences are only a matter of degree. If conditions of existence are destructive to genius, they are destructive to every man, each in proportion to his intelligence. If genius is penalized, so is the faculty of intelligence in every other man. There is only this difference: the average man does not possess the genius's power of self-confident resistance, and will break much faster; he will give up his mind, in hopeless bewilderment, under the first touch of pressure."
In my judgment as best applied within my understanding of Objectivism, the perfect society would be one where the laws of the country are Objectivist, and where majority of people are closely familiar with Objectivism, so that the country is not heading towards hell like USA has been despite very good Constitution in the beginning.

It would still be a perfect Objectivist if some people disagreed, so long as the laws are objective and rational, all parts of society could exists: that is the most intelligent people would not be prevented from producing and thinking.

That's all that makes a perfect Objectivist society.


Now, it seems that you think Objectivist principles would only work if all or almost all agree to them, or otherwise everything will fall apart?

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:04 pm
by Arakasi Takeda
Your posts have a certain attitude towards Objectivism, which I want to check now. You seem to think that Objectivism is only practical in a society where everybody agrees to Objectivist principles.
My particular attitude towards Objectivism, in 'practice', rather than theory, really comes from a critique separate than the line you are following in your questions. Perhaps it would make things a bit clearer if I were to outline that critique for you.

I am a heavy proponent of Game Theory. I'm sure many who frequent this board would have a passing familiarity with the ideas behind Game Theory, but, basically, Game Theory is a branch of mathematics interested in the resolving situations of conflict and cooperation in many biological, social, and economic situations. It attempts to create a purely mechanical way of looking at different 'strategies' utilized by players in these situations, and, from the analysis, draw some conclusions about the viability of different strategic decisions the players could make.

When I look at Objectivism, in comparison with all the other ancient and currently active 'world-view philosophies' in the world, I see it as one strategy amongst many competiting in a world of memes. The entire population of this planet is playing a game, where different philosophies are different strategies one can take to achieve happiness and prosperity in the world. One could consider a variable payoff for following each strategy, based on some number cooresponding to an index of happiness and prosperity, and, from that, arrange a matrix of different values of payoff for pursuit of these different strategies.

Now, calculating a payoff matrix for _every_ philosophy in the world would be painstakingly complex, and probably a waste of time, but there are some underlying principles of Game Theory we can use to take a look at the current world environment.

In any game where multiple strategies can be utilized, the vast majority of such games rarely have just one 'good' strategy. NxN matrix games often have 'mixed-strategies' as their best results. If you look at the payoffs in comparison to each other, as a percentage of a 'whole' payoff of 100%, the viability of different strategies corresponds to some percentage less than 100, but, added with all others, becoming 100% of the total strategies used by all players. So a game with two strategies, A and B, might have a mixed result of 60% A and 40% B.

Mixed strategies can mean a couple of things in games. In 'multiple turn' games, it might represent a distribution of choices made by the players. In 60% of their choices, they use A, and 40 % B, to achieve the best payoff. In single move games, it might represent 60% of players choosing A and 40% of players choosing B to achieve the best results.

In a way, the percentage of the Earth's population choosing one strategy vs another is a representation of the current viability of that strategy to achieve happiness and prosperity. The current viability of Objectivism, vs all other philosophies, is roughly equivelent to the percentage of people who embrace Objectivism vs the percent embracing other strategies.

So, what does this tell me about the viability of Objectivism today? What percent of the Earth's population accepts Objectivism vs all the other choices? The percentage is pretty small.

That doesn't mean that Objectivism isn't a useful strategy for some. It also doesn't mean that Objectivism will only be useful or accepted by a small group all the time - remember, strategies evolve over the generations. There used to be a big percentage of Olympian God worshippers...they are mostly gone now. Maybe, over time, the number of people using the Objectivist strategy will approach some percentage where, as you outlined, enough of them will come to accept a nation with Objectivist laws and justice. But at this point, I really don't see that on the immediate horizon.

I have this underlying 'sense', for lack of a better term, that pure Objectivism isn't a comprehensive strategy. More likely, some mixed strategy of Objectivism and something else is more likely to have a higher payoff for the whole world. I cannot, as of yet, fully describe what that would be in rational terms - it is merely an instinct based on observation.

If I were to take Atlas Shrugged as a model, it would appear to me that Rand is suggesting that some very large percentage of the whole world must accept her philosophy to achieve happiness and prosperity. The whole section of 'John Galt Speaking' seems to encapsulate this idea. Right now, most of the world seems to disagree - the philosophy is over 50 years old, and it's percentage of adherents in the overall scheme of things is in the single digits. So unless the world is moving more and more towards Objectivism over time, there seems to be a problem in its viability.

Turning back towards your quotes about intelligence and genius, you raise one of the major critiques that has followed Objectivism for a long time and, I believe, one that has damaged its ability to achieve more adherents in the 'grand scheme of things'. Rand has created, intentionally or not, a distinct stratification of people. According to her, some people are just more equal than others - they are more intelligent, more productive, etc. While this might be factually true, most societies in this modern age are well aware of the problems of creating stratified classes. They've had their fill of theocracies, monarchies, oligarchies, etc. A class built on intelligence, or wealth, is just one more stratification people do not want to deal with. For all the discussion of Rand that this more productive class is _earning_ it's position, it's not enough to persuade people that the end result isn't a ruling aristocracy. Rand has no problem with that idea - she mentions the aristocracy of wealth in Atlas Shrugged. But there are billions who do. Even I cannot completely shed my inherent distrust of authoritarian looking groups, even one built entirely on merit. If intelligence is, as I suspect, tied to biology and social environment, both of which a child has little or no control over, then the level of achievement accessible by most children isn't based on a flexible enough springboard for a true meritocracy to flourish. Those who already have access to wealth in their educational years, and to good genetics, will always be on top.

Any such rigged game, if history is to be any indication, always ends up as an excuse for those with less power to rise up and use force against it. Perhaps, deep in my analysis, what I see is an inherent flaw of Objectivism...that it may always contain within itself the seeds of its own destruction. Unless 100% of people accept it, there will always arise a class of people who believe the system is unjust, and will rise to destroy it, using force where others find it unnacceptable.

Again, it's not a purely rational view. I can't 100% support it through pure fact or reasoned assessment. It's just the experience of observation of history that makes me wonder.


AT

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:49 pm
by Tolthar Lockbar
There is no doubt that many people would need to learn about Objectivism in their youth. Anyone who says politicians lead the world are wrong: its the educational system. That is why the Ayn Rand institute had donated thousands of books to highschools and colleges.

You are looking at it from a purely efficiency view and not even touching morality. I have seen people who run the less intelectual type jobs but still have a sense of rights and worth. When you see Ayn Rand characters, do you see producers for the sake of producing? Or producers for the sake of their own happiness?

AS was an exaggeration. She took very intelegent people and showed their results when they persued their own happiness. The scale of intelegence makes no difference. Remember the young man who worked on the train? He had no real skill, yet pursued his happiness. Remember the truck driver in Galts Gulge?

Almost that entire post seemed to be based on pragmatism. You see the results, and make a conclusion from that. That is like seeing a car run, and seeing the smoke come out the back, and coming to the conclusion that smoke is what powers cars. In your example, you attributed philosophy with strategy which I also don't think is right.. but to go with it. That is like saying that some strategy work in some situation and take note it; but never along the way do you seem to ask: "why is that strategy better", "what was the context of the situation and how does it differ", "what did it take to get this strategy", etc.

Furthermore, when speaking about what "strategy" goes towards ones own happiness the best... well, that is hardly objective. Some sickos are happy shooting each other, then that hardly is valid in reality. Are the stategies you speak of based on human nature?

Your game theory would work for the context of human life if, and only if, the only difference in it and philosophy of a human were in scale. This is not so. Games theory does not have the context of an entire human life, the significant loss of human life, or the perminant effects on the world around it. If it did, then it would be philosophy, not game theory--and I doubt game theory and philosophy are synonyms.

About your later cretique of Objectivism: What do you think about it morally? Do you see something wrong with people only rising to a class that their abilities allow them to?

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:26 pm
by Tolthar Lockbar
What a moment--what purpose does philosophy have to you then?

Do you look at Objectivism as a set of commandments to act upon, or a set of principles to guide your judgements of what is good/bad?

Objectivism is not:

Thou shalt not kill
Thou shalt not pay the IRS
Thou shalt not wonder who John Galt is

Objectivism is:

Killing is imoral (in most situations)
The concept of the IRS is evil
The statement, "Who is John Galt" is a bad statement and symbolizes giving up in the book AS (most the time).

So what is the purpose of philosophy to you?

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 7:18 am
by Sophid
Arakasi Takeda wrote:the philosophy is over 50 years old, and it's percentage of adherents in the overall scheme of things is in the single digits. So unless the world is moving more and more towards Objectivism over time, there seems to be a problem in its viability
I know that this is a relatively tasteless example, but keep in mind that the Communist Manifesto was published in 1848, and the October Revolution did not take place for another 69 years... And that required pretty ideal conditions for upheaval and a great deal of luck.

Game theory is all well and good, but sweeping social changes often take a series of catalysts... The recognized need for social change amidst a national or global crisis (losing a war or massive economic depression always help), charismatic leadership in a position to take advantage of the situation, etc. And luck.

Russia was a monarchy before the communist revolution, which is about as far from objectivism ideologically as communism. What if, given the ideal conditions of the time, Lenin and Trotsky, et al preached objectivist rhetoric instead of socialist prattle? I think that oppressed workers and enslaved peasants could have accepted objectivism as the solution for their dissatisfaction with the Tsarist government just as readily as communism, given the right voice.

I am not inclined to judge objectivism by the number of its adherents. When the opportunity comes, objectivism will have its chance to shine.

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:21 pm
by Arakasi Takeda
Arakasi Takeda wrote:
the philosophy is over 50 years old, and it's percentage of adherents in the overall scheme of things is in the single digits. So unless the world is moving more and more towards Objectivism over time, there seems to be a problem in its viability
I know that this is a relatively tasteless example, but keep in mind that the Communist Manifesto was published in 1848, and the October Revolution did not take place for another 69 years... And that required pretty ideal conditions for upheaval and a great deal of luck.

Game theory is all well and good, but sweeping social changes often take a series of catalysts... The recognized need for social change amidst a national or global crisis (losing a war or massive economic depression always help), charismatic leadership in a position to take advantage of the situation, etc. And luck.

Russia was a monarchy before the communist revolution, which is about as far from objectivism ideologically as communism. What if, given the ideal conditions of the time, Lenin and Trotsky, et al preached objectivist rhetoric instead of socialist prattle? I think that oppressed workers and enslaved peasants could have accepted objectivism as the solution for their dissatisfaction with the Tsarist government just as readily as communism, given the right voice.

I am not inclined to judge objectivism by the number of its adherents. When the opportunity comes, objectivism will have its chance to shine.
I guess my only answer to this logical example is the following - "Does the emergence of Objectivism as a dominant world philosophy _require_ the existence of a John Galt and the collapse of all governments to 'People's States' in order to occur? Why would that be?"

One could argue that the only reason Communism came into being was because the otherwise useless philosophy managed to work as a political tool within a specific environment at a specific time. If Objectivism is a different kind of philosophy (a TRUE philosophy, if you will), then why should it be subject to the same rules? If the morals of Objectivism are truly objective and universal, shouldn't they emerge naturally, rather than through extreme measures at extreme times?

I think the fact that it hasn't grown spontaneously does actually say something about its own supposed universiality. Perhaps it is as simply as 'these morals will come to dominate over a long time', in which case there is no issue about the present 'single digit support'. Or, maybe, it isn't as 'obviously objective' as it seems. And, of course, there are those individuals who would suggest that the practice of Objectivism is being _actively_ opposed by those with other interests. I'd like to see more evidence to support these claims, but any one of those reasons would explain why a 'universal' philosophy hasn't seemed to rise to the top of the 'marketplace of human ideas'.

I guess my real point is...why would Objectivism need to be like Communism, in order to get noticed and used?

AT

[/quote]

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:08 pm
by Arakasi Takeda
What a moment--what purpose does philosophy have to you then?

Do you look at Objectivism as a set of commandments to act upon, or a set of principles to guide your judgements of what is good/bad?

Objectivism is not:

Thou shalt not kill
Thou shalt not pay the IRS
Thou shalt not wonder who John Galt is

Objectivism is:

Killing is imoral (in most situations)
The concept of the IRS is evil
The statement, "Who is John Galt" is a bad statement and symbolizes giving up in the book AS (most the time).

So what is the purpose of philosophy to you?
Excellent question - One I think may illuminate the major differences between how you and I are thinking on these subjects.

Philosophy, for me, is a process, not a destination. I'm a scientist, both my nature and by training. While science allows me to generate understanding of the physical phenomenon around me, philosophy allows me to come to grips with broader, non-physical conceptions - about the nature of the universe, the meaning of knowledge, morality, and life.

What you have outlined above, in your questions, is only one branch of philosophy - moral philosophy. I'm vastly more interested in Metaphysics - the nature of reality. To me, moral philosophy is just a derivative of Metaphysics. It is senseless to talk about what is 'moral' in the universe without discussing what the universe is, if it has rules, what those rules are, and how those rules might relate to such derivative questions.

In philosophy, like science, I am interested in the possibility of deriving 'laws' or knowledge from direct observation of reality. I've gotten over the Metaphysical 'humps' of Subjective Reality,Nihilism, and Hard Skepticism (the idea that nothing can truly be known). I'm convinced that there really are things that 'exist', and that their existence is not solely dependent on me. So now I am interested in examing various 'Objective Reality' philosophies, of which Objectivism is one, to see if I can observe, through experience, any truth in them. Mostly, this means first sorting through the various premises of different philosophies, sifting out any with logical incoherence. In this, I am not only interested in the philosophy itself, but in the application of this philosophy by its proclaimed adherents. I happen to believe that an idea, by itself, is just an idea. 'Reality' is partially composed of how thinking beings, like us, act on those ideas. If a philosophy expounds a particular idea, but none of its adherents follow that idea, then either there is something wrong with the philosophy, or something wrong with the adherents, and the study of that inconsistency is often very illuminating.

The reason I engage in debates with you, Oleksandr, and others is to challenge both my own understanding of Objectivism, and _yours_. I'm interested in your reactions to questions, and how you argue, as much as what you argue. I'm hoping you can teach me something I don't understand about the application of the Objectivism, as well as simply expousing its various concepts, rationalizations, and dogmas.

That is what philosophy is to me....we are doing it, right now, in having this discussion.

Getting back to your questions on moral philosophy - They are far more illuminating to me on how _you_ perceive Objectivism, than what you might glean from me on its meaning. The way you phrased your questions especially.

You ask if I see them as 'commandment' for actions, and you use a very specific Judeo-Christian way of espousing that idea in using the 'Thou Shalt Not' language. You use it mockingly, which suggests that you might be trying to tie my 'understanding' of Objectivism to some kind of similarly derived philosophy (a quasi-religious prohibition of action). You also are espousing a suggestion, like Oleksandr did earlier, that I subscribe to some branch of the Pragmatist school - that I derive morality from the results of actions, not from universal rules. Neither of these assumptions are correct.

My understanding of Objectivism's moral absolutes are best described in reference to a similar principle in the physical sciences - known in Cosmology as the 'Anthropic Principle'. The Anthropic Principle, proposed by Stephen Hawking, is an attempt to explain why certain physical constants in the universe, which could theoretically have any value, all seem to have values which allow life to exist. Some suggest that this is 'proof' of divine creation - someone 'made' the universe specifically for us, and thus 'fine-tuned' these constants to make life possible. Hawking's response was to state that this apparent 'fine-tuning' is an illusion created by our actual existence. Because we exist to preceive these constants as fine-tuned, we assume an incorrect causation. If the constants were something else, we wouldn't be here to discuss them.

Rand's morals are an 'Anthropic Principle' of sorts. They are, as you suggest, a set of principles to judge your actions. But even more than that, they are a set of principles that define your existence as 'Human'. If an individual exists, who lives by principles _other_ than those outlined in Objectivism, then that individual is not 'fulfilling the requirements' of being truly human. They are guilty of what in Objectivism is referred to as 'Evasion' - the willful suspension of thought in order to escape the responsibility of judgemen [full definition can be found at: http://www.aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/evasion.html]. Evasion leads to the collapse of the individual into a savage - something less than human.

Ergo, according to Rand, we must act as Humans to be human, otherwise, we are savages. To act as a human is to embrace Objectivist principles.


Now - that is my understanding of what Objectivist morals _are_ (in their metaphysical sense, so to speak, as opposed to what each individual outlined moral might be in application i.e. Ethical behavior is Capitalism, etc.)

A better question to ask now might be - do I believe that the above formulation of Objectivist morality is TRUTH?

Or do I hold that it might be in error (which, by Objectivist standards, means I'm an evasive savage).

AT

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:49 pm
by Sophid
Arakasi wrote:"Does the emergence of Objectivism as a dominant world philosophy _require_ the existence of a John Galt and the collapse of all governments to 'People's States' in order to occur? Why would that be?"
Actually, in a sense it does. :D

I believe very strongly that one of the primary functions in all governments today is to stay in power. A transition to an objectivist society (which is a pretty drastic change, even here in the US) would require governments to virtually vote themselves out of existence, and I just don't see dictators, monarchs and politicians giving up their power willingly. Furthermore, 'big business' and governments are often seen going hand in hand these days, so government support will continue to thrive in those businesses because the status quo is profitable to those businessmen personally.

The reason why objectivism is like communism in one sense (and one sense only) is because the people in power have a personal interest in seeing objectivism not take root.

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:47 pm
by Tolthar Lockbar
Freedom part in ontario

They don't like Libertarians and the leader of it is an big time Objectivist.

video with the leader speaking on TV He speaks about how an Objectivist would come about.

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:55 pm
by Tolthar Lockbar
So is Karl Marx an evil man?