TTI Forums

Here is a article that was printed, and now has been the cause of national critisism.

I can't stand ppl who are openly asses, and even seem to enjoy the emotional charge they know they will get out of american masses.


http://media.dailycollegian.com/pages/t ... _archive=1

You know... I try to be an open minded and tolerant man... I really do. I try to accept different view points and perspectives that people may have, and respect their views... but his guy? No fucking way.

Here is a little something for him:

Well as an Arizonan who saw him play once I guess I'm a little perturbed. This is just outrageous. Maybe he should move to another country where patriotism isn't valued or important?

What a jackass I'd like to make sure a copy of this letter goes to EVERYONE he ever works with. He may be a liberal whiney college kid now but eventually he'll get out in the real world. A world where an attitude like this DOES NOT go over well.

Calladen

Not saying I agree with what the guy writes but many americans walk a fine line between patriotism and nationalism.

Also what the hell is so wrong abnout beeing liberal, thinking that everyone deserves a certain minimum standard of living and that the first come first served attitude read: American dream is a bit over the top cant be that bad?

Where I see he has a point is that the war on terrorism cant be won, sure you can and should defeat terrorist organisations, but there will always be those who survive or are unhappy with the way things are and belive the only answer is through armed conflict.

Yeah, I think the author of the article is making some assumptions about Tillman's motives.

However, the last paragraph is, I believe, relevant and insightful...

Al-Qaeda won't be defeated in Afghanistan, even if we did kill all their operatives there. Only through careful and logical changing of the underlying conditions that allow for the ideology to foster will Al-Qaeda be defeated. Ask the Israelis if 50 years of blunt force have eradicated the Palestinian resistance.

Jeffor,

I dont mind him saying the war on terror cant be one. Personally I believe the same thing. I do believe it can be mostly contained but as this is a free country we wil always be at risk.

My big objection is his slandering a dead person. If he objects to the war fine but he has NO CAUSE to jump on someone he didn't even know.

Oh by the way, it was on the front page of todays Arizona Republic, Pat Tillman was posthumously awarded the Silver Star for heroism. Apparently while not in any danger initially he led his crew uphill to attack when others were in danger. He fought and died for his fellow serviceman. This is bravery and heroism in my book.

The Silver Star is the third highest military honor available in the Army. The Medal of Honor and the Distiguished Service Cross are 1 & 2.

If reports are accurate he died a hero.

Calladen (Erik)

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepubli ... man01.html

Tillman's final moments earn Silver Star
Billy House
Republic Washington Bureau
May. 1, 2004 12:00 AM

WASHINGTON - Pat Tillman died while leading a team of Army Rangers up a remote southeastern Afghan hill to knock out enemy fire that had pinned down other American soldiers, the Army said Friday.

The Army released details of the death of the former Arizona Cardinals football player as it announced that he was posthumously awarded the Silver Star, its third-highest award for combat valor.

Tillman, 27, and his combat team were initially not in danger from the hostile small-arms and mortar fire when the April 22 ambush began. But when the rear section of his convoy became pinned down in rough terrain, Tillman ordered his team out of its vehicles "to take the fight to the enemy forces" on the higher ground.

As Tillman and other soldiers neared the hill's crest, he directed his team into firing positions, the Army said. As he sprayed the enemy positions with fire from his automatic rifle, he was shot and killed. The Army said his actions helped the trapped soldiers maneuver to safety "without taking a single casualty."


Presentation Monday
Walter Sokalski, a spokesman for Army Special Forces Command, said the Silver Star will be presented to Tillman's family Monday during a public memorial service in San Jose.

"It will be presented by members of the 75th Ranger Regiment, by soldiers that knew him," Sokalski said. Tillman was in the 2nd Battalion of the regiment, based out of Fort Lewis, Wash.

Tillman, who walked away from a $3.6 million contract extension offered by the Cardinals to join the Army in 2002, this week also was posthumously promoted to corporal from specialist.

Pentagon officials had previously given only sketchy details of the fighting 26 miles southwest of Khost, saying that the ambush took place about 7:30 p.m. (6 a.m. Arizona time) near the village of Sperah and that two other soldiers were wounded and an Afghan Militia Force soldier was killed.

Tillman's platoon was in the region as part of a spring offensive called Operation Mountain Storm aimed at rooting out hard-line Taliban and al-Qaida fighters.


Ranger died heroically
But, according to the details provided Friday, Tillman led his Ranger team that day "without regard for his own safety" and was shot and killed heroically trying to protect his comrades.

Tillman's platoon had been split into two sections during a patrol.

Tillman, a team leader, was in the platoon's front when the rear section was hit with enemy fire. Because of the rough terrain, "the trail element was unable to maneuver out of the kill zone, and it was difficult for the embattled trail section to target the enemy positions," according the Army's description of the events.

Although his group was safely out of that danger area, the Army said, Tillman ordered his team members to get out of their vehicles and maneuver up a hill near the enemy's location.

As they got to the crest of the hill, "Tillman's voice was heard issuing commands to take the fight to the enemy forces emplaced on the dominating high ground."

It was during this effort, as he provided suppressive fire, that Tillman was shot and killed, the Army said.

Sokalski said Friday that he had no information on whether any of the enemy attackers had been identified or captured.


Platoon leader's praise
During a briefing Friday with Pentagon reporters, Gen. John Abizaid, commander of U.S. Central Command, which includes operations in Afghanistan and Iraq, said he was able to talk Thursday with 1st Lt. Dave Hutman, Tillman's platoon leader.

"I asked him about Pat Tillman," Abizaid told the reporters. "He said, 'Pat Tillman was a great Ranger and a great soldier, and what more can I say about him?'

"When he was talking to me, he was still nursing a large number of wounds that he sustained in that firefight where Pat Tillman lost his life.

"These soldiers are fighting hard. They're fighting well. They're fighting courageously. And the only thing that the lieutenant could say to me is that he needed to get back in the field to his troops."

"It wasn't like he was defending the East coast from an invasion of a foreign power. THAT would have been heroic and laudable."

Yes it was and yes it was. The east coast WAS attacked by a self-styled foreign power and nearly 3,000 Americans died. About the same number that died when Pearl Harbor was attacked in 1941. Americans had no difficulty, then, in knowing what the right thing was to do.

"He wasn't defending me, nor was he defending the Afghani people. "

Yes, he was, whether you or they deserve it or not.

"..50 percent of the American nation that thinks Saddam Hussein was behind Sept. 11. "

I don't know of anyone who believes S. Hussein was directly involved in the 9/11 attack. We have declared war on terrorists. He is a terrorist Any questions?

"Al-Qaeda won't be defeated in Afghanistan"

Yes, they will, as long as we can produce more Cpl. Tillmans than Senor Gonzalez'.

"Ask the Israelis if 50 years of blunt force have eradicated the Palestinian resistance."

The Israelis have never been permitted by the international community to use enough force to eradicate the Palestinian thugs ( I refuse to dignify them by calling them a resistance or to allow you, Senor Gonzalez, to get away with it) nor has that ever been their goal.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Senor Gonzalez has made a number of assertions. Assertions, even when made by presumably intelligent and educated people, are not, ipso facto, truth.

The truth is that we, as a country, are at war with terrorist organizations. Al-Qaeda is a terrorist organisation. Al-Qaeda is based in Afghanistan. We have gone to Afghanistan to wage war. Afghanistan WAS governed by the Taliban who openly and defiantly supported Al-Qaeda. Therefore, any Afghani loyal to the Taliban and/or Al-Qaeda is a belligerant and a target. Simple syllogistic logic. Any questions?

The truth is that, in nearly every society for hundreds of thousands of years, able-bodied men are expected to stand toe-to-toe with the enemies of their society and defend it, with their lives if necessary. Have you spoken with a recruiter lately, Senor Gonzalez?

The truth is that Cpl. Pat Tillman did the right thing. He did more than the right thing. He left a position of safety to put himself in harm's way for the sake of his fellow soldiers and THAT is why he deserves to be honored as a hero.

It is my custom to go to a bar on Memorial day, buy a round of drinks for the bar and toast, by name, all the 'Johnnies' who didn't come marching home, with whom I was personally acquainted. I'm sure Pat Tillman's friends and relatives will not object if, this year, I add his name to the rest, even though I did not have the honor of his acquaintance.

Well said Fionn and Calladen. The only way I would like to add to the above posts is to say, without knowing the Cpl Tillman, who the fuck does this guy think he is speaking that way of the dead. It makes you wonder about the freedom of speech (1st Ammendment?) when the likes of this guy abuse it to convey such disrespectful 'opinions'.

**Edit by GunnyP

oh now. I don't think "spick" is a nice word to use here. No matter whome you're talking about.

I, like Jeffor, do agree with one part of the article:

Al-Qaeda won't be defeated in Afghanistan, even if we did kill all their operatives there. Only through careful and logical changing of the underlying conditions that allow for the ideology to foster will Al-Qaeda be defeated.

It's a matter of fact. Al Qaeda doesn't call Afghanistan it's home. It was a major base of operations, but it's a larger organization than som believe it to be. I agree that the only way you can defeat terrorism is to change the ideals of youth that would supply them with recruits.

America is at war with Terrorists... we are tired of "swatting flys" just like Mrs. Rice said... and that means that we are tired of "they hit us", "we hit them"... it is just a never ending cycle of retaliation... look at Isreal and the Palistinians.

So America is done screwing around... the only way to truly crush the terrorists is to make sure that they have no safe havens to run to... we are "lifting all the rugs, and turning on the lights"... and we are not going to give the terrorists any place to hide... therefore, we are systamaticly crushing any nation that harbors terrorists... Afganastain was one such country... Iraq was another...

We do not want to stay in either place... we want out as soon as possible... but the Iraqi's and Afgans have never tasted freedom. They are accostom to following the rule of their local Amam blindly... and ofc the Amam maintains power due to the fact that the education level of the average man in those countrys is very low... this serves the Amam well, as the "mindless masses" are easier to manipulate that way... even if they had a (what we would concider) normal level of education, they are still being whipped up into a religious fervor by America being protraid as the "infidel" in the Koran... we are the devil... dispite the fact that we have ended Saddamm's rule of terror... he used to torture his soccer team when they did not win ffs... but we are the devil... madness... and it stems from the culture of the place... it's the cult of personality really (imho)... look at what Hitler, Mossolini (sp?), Kim Jong Ill from Korea, or the villiage elder in Vietnam, etc... they got into power and stayed that way (with the support of their people) by whipping them up in to a frenzy... this was done by pointing to some other group or country and blaming them for all of the problems the nation was having... "the Americans are the great devil and are trying to rule you... so rise up and fight them... martyr yourself so that you can go to heaven... sure, sure, after you kill yourself you will be loved in heaven trust me... but you go do that, i'll be back here with the nice house, fine wine and all the chicks... but yeah, the americans are the devil... go fight them... " and it works! Just look at all the people that are driving 100's or 1000's of miles to get to Iraq, just for a shot at killing a few americans in a suicide bombing... you know, if the average iraqi was educated, they would see through the smoke screen... but as the culture in those countrys has been that way for years and years... i don't see it changing any time soon...

Is this flame bait.. yeah... and i know it... i've tried to refrain from posting because i believe in what Bush is doing... 9-11 changed a lot of things... we can no longer sit back and get hit/retaliate/they retaliate against us/we hit them... etc... the chain has to be broken. So, we are turning on the lights world wide... lifting all the rugs... and not giving the cockroaches any place to hide... and now that they are out in the open, we will crush them.

One assumption you make is a very big mistake. That the source of the problem is education. It is not. Most of the hard core fanatics are in fact western university educated, the UK is full of them. Fanaticism comes in all guises, and can fool anyone. Germans are not imbiciles, and they had the greatest fanatical liar of all time leading them. The sucess of democratic countries or fanatical governments is not to do with the populations IQ levels. Stupid people can have a well functioning democracy too.

Iraq was not haboring terrorists, neither did it have MWD's. Bush did not come out and say it either, but hinted and mislead the american people, and tried to pull a fast one on the UN. Kicking out Saddam, good, lieing about the reasons, bad, very bad. Blair made the case of kicking out Saddam without resorting to fantasies of MWD's or harboring terrorists, Bush cant make a case if it bit him in the ass.

The reason for going into Iraq was to transform arab status quo which breeds fanaticism, and instilling a prosperous democracy. This is a good cause. But Bush and his generals are messing up, they have no plan, people are dying for this, many more will too. When the US went in, many did in fact see them as liberators. They had something good to start with. Things have changed, Bush and his generals seriously screwed up, they had no plan, they fumbled, keep fumbling, they put in Garner, put him late, then pull him out, put in Bremer. They have no fricken clue what the hell they are doing.

I supported Bush going to war in Iraq, I thought he had the balls like Blair and knew what was going on. But he's not Blair, he hasnt a clue. I dont support Bush making one cock up after the other since then.

We do not want to stay in either place...

Has Bush said that? No, not once. He hasnt said heres a time table of what we need to do, he hasnt said we want to help you then get out. He hasnt said, dont worry, we're rich, we can buy your oil, we dont need to take it. For all the talk about the war is about the hearts and minds, Bush is doing jack shit to win that war cause he cant put 5 words together without tripping up. The US needs a Blair, a Clinton, a Reagan, a Kennedy, orators. Bush isnt one.

You seem to forget that the clergy in Iraq had no influence whatsoever during Sadams Iraq had they tried anything like what they do today they would have been ratted out to the secret police and on their way to the nearest prison or firing squad.

On another note the US have no right to invade sovereign states (Afghanistans soverenety can be discussed since no nations with the exception of Pakistan I tink ever agnowledged the taliban and a legitimate government.) based on sircumstantial evidence.

The invasion of Afghanistan can to a certain degree be defended by ethics if you look at it as a war of retaliation but thats strecthing it.

You cant say that the war on iraq was due to terrorism the whole thing was based on the idea that Iraq was building weapons of mass destruction and the possibility that Sadam would use them on the western world was to great a risk to ignore. The invation comenced even though the chief of the UN weapon inspectors said that he saw with his own eyes that the weapon programs were dismantleled over a 7 year period. Hans Blix said that there were no proof that there were any mwd's (no proff that there werent either.) Lately we've had Bush poke fun at himself for not finding any wmd's and right now it doesnt look like they will find anything any time soon. Making the whole war imorral due to the reasons for why it was started seems to be non existant. I dare say that since the CIA has also said that they cant find any ties between Sadam and Al-Qaida.

You argument about poor education in Iraq is also faulty to a certain degree.

"UNESCO and Education in IRAQ Fact Sheet (28 March 2003)

The Education system in Iraq, prior to 1991, was one of the best in the region, with over 100% Gross Enrolment Rate for primary schooling and high levels of literacy, both of men and women. The Higher Education, especially the scientific and technological institutions, were of an international standard, staffed by high quality personnel."

http://portal.unesco.org/en/ev.php@URL_ ... N=201.html

When this is said I want to say I support the solders who are risking their lifes and i hope they all get home in one piece. But I do not suppor the reasons for why the war on iraq was started.

Top 10 signs you've been playing too much EVE.

#10: Continuously referring to "MWDs" in political debates, when in fact you are probably talking about Weapons of Mass Destruction. 8)

Nono, Hussein really did have Micro Warp Drives, and we wanted him to get rid of them, or else

Oops edited.

You too? Thought he was refering to mine. nm, just a bit of purposeful comic relief in an otherwise heated debate

In my opinion, if terrorism is to be tackled it has to be approached in mulitple aspects simultaniously- yes attacking them directly and those that support them is one of those. But somehow you have to change the beliefs of the people that are terrorists or would join terrorists.

It goes beyond just education. Most terrorist problems have their roots in the past. In some problems, you can blame religion and our overzealous leaders of long past- in others you can blame bad political choices of recent history. But terrorism has exsisted for hundreds of years.

The solution to the problem is far far more complex than just blowing something up. Unfortunately I doubt very much any of us here are able to give the solution.

One thing I'm happy we all agree on though is finding it extremely distasteful to "flame" a dead guy when you have no idea what made him tick -- no matter what nationality or race, if someone gives their life to save their fellow soldiers- that is commendable.

Only through careful and logical changing of the underlying conditions that allow for the ideology to foster will Al-Qaeda be defeated.

i have to say that the guys article left a vile taste. regardless of how disagreeable the article was, he does have the right to voice his opinion. that is after all the underlying principle of america, the freedom to say really stupid things.

about the only thing i saw that he wrote that had any real meaning was the above quote. the ideology of islamic fundamentalism. that is what needs to be looked at and dealt with.

if you look at the world picture, islamic fundamentalists have declared war vs everyone else. that means every body that does not believe the way they do, including moderate islam believers. this may be the opening of a long term, world war where the borders are in shadows, the enemy is everywhere, and the goal of the enemy is erradication of all infidels.

forget america, russia, england, ect. this is a war of us vs them.
forget the war on terror. declare war on islamic fundamentalism because they have already declared war on you.

lc

Talun wrote:The solution to the problem is far far more complex than just blowing something up. Unfortunately I doubt very much any of us here are able to give the solution.

Well, you can't have a real solution unless you begin with real honesty about the problem. I agree, though, that it probably doesn't involve blowing things up. Iraq is more volatile now than it was before the war.

So far, in this war alone, three times as many Iraqi civilians have died than Americans on 9/11. It's easy for us to sit back and say, "well, they lived in a regime that (supposedly) harbored terrorists and WMD," or, "well, half of that is from their own insurgents, they have only themselves to blame." Regardless of how we make ourselves feel better, it won't change the fact that once we showed up, their sons, daughters, infants, elderly, husbands and wives started dying. We can hope that the bereaved maintain a level head, but you know, some of them are going to want to vent their anger, just like we did on 9/11. And of those, some of them will sign up with their local resistance group... some, obviously, as suicide bombers. Violence breeds violence... like the classical Hydra of the Greeks, cut off one head and two will grow back in its place.

This isn't Pokemon... you can't "catch them all." Terrorism is a phenomenon, a political device, not a tangible enemy. Be honest about its causes (poverty, oppression, fanaticism, nationalism, imperialism, globalism) and you may be able to begin addressing it.

GunnyP wrote:

the chain has to be broken. So, we are turning on the lights world wide... lifting all the rugs... and not giving the cockroaches any place to hide... and now that they are out in the open, we will crush them.

So whats up with Saudi Arabia? It is the main financiee for terrorist groups since decades, who is lifting those rugs?

Cutani Phlegg wrote:GunnyP wrote:

the chain has to be broken. So, we are turning on the lights world wide... lifting all the rugs... and not giving the cockroaches any place to hide... and now that they are out in the open, we will crush them.

So whats up with Saudi Arabia? It is the main financiee for terrorist groups since decades, who is lifting those rugs?

If you are a terrorist, terrorist organisation or a state sponsoring terrorism, be patient. Someone will be with you shortly.

Well damn! It was not my intention to bring a debate about Bush to our forums... Infact i wanted to delete this post after the forums came back online, but Gunnyp had already responded.. so i left it.

The problem in Iraq is extremely complex. You cant just kill all those shooting at you. You cant just educate the masses, this wont solve our problmes. You cant just tell the masses with propoganda that your freindly, and want to help. You cant just set up a democracy in a country ruled by a harsh dictator for decades. You cant just set up forts and withdraw from the cities to let the citizens 'sort themselves out'. And ofc you cant just nuke em.

Its extremely complex issues. What about food, and water? What about crime and hospitals? Bush is trying. He is trying to do what he views is 'the best course of action'. I support him. I support our troops. I think we're (the USA) is trying to fix a very complex and violent problem in Iraq.

Oh and btw, i cant believe anyone disputes Sudiam (sp?) had WMD!!!

For many years, UN inspectors had detailed questions
that needed to be answered before they could declare
that all of Iraq’s chemical and biological programs and
long-range missile programs had ended and that all
remaining weapons had been destroyed.

http://www.ceip.org/files/pdf/Iraq3Chap2.pdf

and there is this:

A substantial amount of Iraq’s chemical warfare
agents, precursors, munitions, and production equipment
were destroyed between 1991 and 1998 as a
result of Operation Desert Storm and UNSCOM
(United Nations Special Commission) actions.
Nevertheless, we believe Iraq retained production
equipment, expertise, and chemical precursors and
can reconstitute a chemical warfare program in the
absence of an international inspection regime. . .
There is no reliable information on whether Iraq
is producing and stockpiling chemical weapons,
or where Iraq has—or will—establish its chemical
warfare agent production facilities. . . Iraq is steadily
establishing a dual use industrial chemical infrastructure
that provides some of the building blocks necessary
for production of chemical agents.

Please! Even if they had all the weapons int he world, Iraq could easily hide them. Even if we had all the details of exactly what they were stored in (a 10 semi trucks painted hot pink) and exactly what he had in them, no one could ever find them if a person was determined to hide them. It would be like me telling you hey, i have a 10'x10'x10' safe filled with solid pure gold in California. You find it you keep it. Please, you'd never find it! Needle in a hay stack.

Did Bush lie, ya he probably did, BUT he hasnt ran away from the crap that has landed on him. Has the US turned its' back on Iraq? and let hostiles take advantage of the situation? Bush is _trying_ to fix the reactions to his actions (however folly they were), and for this i support him: he doesnt run from or try to side step negitive consequences that are a result from his decisions or actions.

OK Ranting is done, Hey Marq! we're out of Quafe! can you get us some more?! All this talking is making me thirsty! and while your out... can you whip up a couple of 1mn MWDs my new vigil needs some.

Wheres he supposed to run to? Nobody says he's not trying. He's just incompetent.

Check this out:

http://www.dailycollegian.com/vnews/dis ... 0744e398cd

Theres a list a mile long with ppl commenting on it.