Hello everyone,
I am at the same time a new player, a new applicant and very eager to join you in the TTI corporation.
I'm still looking at the different possibilities of the game and I'm trying to understand the fundamentals before jumping into action.
Regarding the trading mechanisms of the game, and I'm puzzled by one thing in the manual on which I'd like your thoughts because I'd rather not train my character if I misunderstand the concepts...
Marketing and procurement allow to trade items across say 2 or 3 systems. Let's assume there is an arbitrage opportunity (the sell price in one system is inferior to the buy price in the other). Using these marketing and procurement abilities, can I just realize the gain without actually travelling, thus risk-free??? It seems too good to be true (although it requires quite some levelling up in the skills). Can you confirm this, or more likely explain to me why it is not the case please? In other words, is it possible to develop some kind of uber-trader who can make the market across the galaxy? - which is a pretty cool concept you'll have to admit...
Thanks in advance, and I hope to meet you online.
-dg
Introduction and question
-
Raaz Satik
- Taggart Director
- Posts: 2026
- Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 2:40 pm
Marketing and Procurement allow you to enter the orders remotely but you would still have to physically move the commodity.
For example if you are currently in System 1, but have assets in System 3 you can put those assets in system 3 on the market using the Marketing Skill. But if you wanted to sell them in system 2, you would have to go to System 3 and move them to System 2 first.
I hope this answers your question and I hope you decide to apply for membership with TTI.
Raaz
PS. On the subject of trading here's an interesting article for you
http://www.eveguardian.net/index.php?op ... Itemid=153
Galactic Trader: A Dead Profession?
Written by Shar Tegral
Friday, 03 December 2004
Routinely I hear many pundits claiming that various changes to the economy, and the methods involved, have ruined the profession of cargo transporters and traders across the galaxy. So for a few days I teamed up with a friend and we decided to see how true this belief might be.
Now let's be a little honest, success in this practice will require some starting funds, good training, and most importantly a good ship. The more cargo you can carry per trip the better your profit margin will be for the time you spend.
Both of us are long time veteran players, with over 15 million university credits, and even using off the shelf equipment we started off much better able then the new pilot entering the space lanes. We decided on limiting our mutual bank at 25,000,000 isk and set a limit of two days normal flight time.
Wow.
Two major things occurred to us. First, my god this is boring with added emphasis on boring. Second, what an easy way to make casual money.
While everything went very well I need to point out one big "oopsie" that was made in this experiment. The one cargo type that sucks to high heaven as a cargo hauler is: Minerals. While you can often acquire minerals below market average and sell them for a good net profit there is one major limitation, volume.
Considering the number of miners trying to push their product onto the market you will always be able to find high volume of discount minerals. However it is locating buyers willing to purchase minerals, at a profit for you, in a volume that makes traveling there worth it.
My partner made this huge mistake. He saw minerals at a steep discount and located a solar system with numerous orders at high volume. However this solar system was noticeable by others and by time he had traveled there, in his Mammoth fully loaded, all the demand was completely filled. He then spent two hours moving to every small volume buyer to keep from making a loss on his investment. (I think he should have taken the loss since the time wasted was more valuable in the long run.)
Remember: Highly competitive markets require speed to capitalize on them. If you are slow, don't enter those markets. Also try to avoid highly specialized markets where there are only one or two buyers total, it will save you some embarrassment. (Currently I have 26 million isk tied up in a cargo waiting for the market to recover. Someone beat me there.)
Our ships were top of the line due to our training. I flew my beautiful Gallente Iteron Mk V while my friend, a truly loyal Matari who flies only Matari ships, flew his rugged and speedy Mammoth. The configuration of our ships was very similar indeed.
For the high power slots, absolutely nothing was placed on our ship. For the medium power locations we both used two 10mn afterburners and three capacitor rechargers (I). In the low ship berths we placed either engine overdrives for speed runs or cargo expanders (18%) for volume hauls. Nothing that cannot be acquired off the shelf, or anything needing too much training making it inaccessible to new pilots. (Another side note: The Bestower is a very accessible industrial to pilot for the new pilot.)
The next thing we did was to familarize ourselves with the new and improved market data streams. We had heard of changes, we have heard people cheering and we have heard people crying out in pain. We decided to take a look only at the things we needed to know: How much cargo is there, How much does it cost, and how much profit we can make on hauling it to the buyer. And that doesn't nead any training at all other than a sharp mind.
When we opened up the market data stream the first thing of note is how crisp, clear, and concisely all the information is presented to you. The ability to see buyers and sellers at a glance was a huge positive change to say the least. What excited us next was that the new interface was a recent addition to the pod pilot's virtuality. You do not have to be hooked into a station to see market changes or do some research.
Wow.
The final thing that made us swear by the new market is the fuller integration between the market interface and the space ship's navigational arrays. Where as before you could set the autopilot now you can even dock directly from the station list in the market display. (You can also do this from the "assets" database accessbile by all pod pilots.)
This is a piece of cake!
We started small trying to simulate what a new pilot might have access to considering his funds. Moving things like Garbage and Water. We then moved up the food chain to thing like Tobacco, Carbon, Electronic Parts, all the way up to Planetary Vehicles.
The key thing to remember is to always go for a full cargo. Never half step simply because you might make a better margin but don't have the funds to do a full load. Quantity is where you make your best profit. Another thing to consider is a multiple run to satisfy a buyer's volume in entirety. This will ensure that you get the best price for as much cargo as possible. (However that can be risky as someone can come along satisfying the customer's demand, decreasing the price asked.)
Always check for convenient hauling. Quite often you can find cargoes that will net you anywhere from 10 - 100+ isk per unit while remaining in the same system or with in 1 - 2 jumps. Always consider time as much a factor in your revenue projection as is net profit. Going 12 jumps to net 15 isk per unit is a relative waste of time.
We could not help adding a few words on the value of teamwork. Our society forces us to consider any advantage, such as lucrative trade routes, as treasured items not to be shared with anyone. Yet working together with a friend, or more, expands the one resource that is even more valuable, information.
Cross regional hauling is very lucrative when targeted just right. However the time involved in discovering those cross regional markets will see you losing out to someone who already knows about them. The only way to overcome such a handicap is to work together. Share information across regions to make one another more effective. This may mean that you have to indulge in a bit of quid pro quo but when your profits soar from such dealings it is not a losing situation at all.
In example, we discovered, my friend and I, a very lucrative cross-region trade item. Between our two vehicles we were able to haul almost 90% of the buyer's demand in one trip. The total net was 15.8 million isk, which we shared. For a 12 jump trip.
The upshot was that once we had sold the product the price demands dropped about 600 isk per unit. In other cases we've seen where one full truckload can drop the buyer's price by 10 - 15%, total. This is enough of a drop in price to reduce any significant net profit.
At the end of our two-day experiment we had taken our extravagant, to a new pilot, 25 million isk and nurtured it to a nice 65 million isk pot. 20 million isk a piece for a total of 8 hours of zero risk piloting time requiring only the skills need to fly a truck well.
The only thing that we can tell you at this point: If someone cries about how disappointing "trade" is don't believe him or her. They are either trying to discourage other budding traders to protect their markets or are simply disappointed that they can't find anything with higher margins then the gold mines they are already pumping as hard as they can.
And while there is a third possible reason, even the Jovians have yet to design a trading algorithm that works in conjunction with the "autopilot", we feel it is not necessary to elaborate on this "lame" type of thinking.[/
For example if you are currently in System 1, but have assets in System 3 you can put those assets in system 3 on the market using the Marketing Skill. But if you wanted to sell them in system 2, you would have to go to System 3 and move them to System 2 first.
I hope this answers your question and I hope you decide to apply for membership with TTI.
Raaz
PS. On the subject of trading here's an interesting article for you
http://www.eveguardian.net/index.php?op ... Itemid=153
Galactic Trader: A Dead Profession?
Written by Shar Tegral
Friday, 03 December 2004
Routinely I hear many pundits claiming that various changes to the economy, and the methods involved, have ruined the profession of cargo transporters and traders across the galaxy. So for a few days I teamed up with a friend and we decided to see how true this belief might be.
Now let's be a little honest, success in this practice will require some starting funds, good training, and most importantly a good ship. The more cargo you can carry per trip the better your profit margin will be for the time you spend.
Both of us are long time veteran players, with over 15 million university credits, and even using off the shelf equipment we started off much better able then the new pilot entering the space lanes. We decided on limiting our mutual bank at 25,000,000 isk and set a limit of two days normal flight time.
Wow.
Two major things occurred to us. First, my god this is boring with added emphasis on boring. Second, what an easy way to make casual money.
While everything went very well I need to point out one big "oopsie" that was made in this experiment. The one cargo type that sucks to high heaven as a cargo hauler is: Minerals. While you can often acquire minerals below market average and sell them for a good net profit there is one major limitation, volume.
Considering the number of miners trying to push their product onto the market you will always be able to find high volume of discount minerals. However it is locating buyers willing to purchase minerals, at a profit for you, in a volume that makes traveling there worth it.
My partner made this huge mistake. He saw minerals at a steep discount and located a solar system with numerous orders at high volume. However this solar system was noticeable by others and by time he had traveled there, in his Mammoth fully loaded, all the demand was completely filled. He then spent two hours moving to every small volume buyer to keep from making a loss on his investment. (I think he should have taken the loss since the time wasted was more valuable in the long run.)
Remember: Highly competitive markets require speed to capitalize on them. If you are slow, don't enter those markets. Also try to avoid highly specialized markets where there are only one or two buyers total, it will save you some embarrassment. (Currently I have 26 million isk tied up in a cargo waiting for the market to recover. Someone beat me there.)
Our ships were top of the line due to our training. I flew my beautiful Gallente Iteron Mk V while my friend, a truly loyal Matari who flies only Matari ships, flew his rugged and speedy Mammoth. The configuration of our ships was very similar indeed.
For the high power slots, absolutely nothing was placed on our ship. For the medium power locations we both used two 10mn afterburners and three capacitor rechargers (I). In the low ship berths we placed either engine overdrives for speed runs or cargo expanders (18%) for volume hauls. Nothing that cannot be acquired off the shelf, or anything needing too much training making it inaccessible to new pilots. (Another side note: The Bestower is a very accessible industrial to pilot for the new pilot.)
The next thing we did was to familarize ourselves with the new and improved market data streams. We had heard of changes, we have heard people cheering and we have heard people crying out in pain. We decided to take a look only at the things we needed to know: How much cargo is there, How much does it cost, and how much profit we can make on hauling it to the buyer. And that doesn't nead any training at all other than a sharp mind.
When we opened up the market data stream the first thing of note is how crisp, clear, and concisely all the information is presented to you. The ability to see buyers and sellers at a glance was a huge positive change to say the least. What excited us next was that the new interface was a recent addition to the pod pilot's virtuality. You do not have to be hooked into a station to see market changes or do some research.
Wow.
The final thing that made us swear by the new market is the fuller integration between the market interface and the space ship's navigational arrays. Where as before you could set the autopilot now you can even dock directly from the station list in the market display. (You can also do this from the "assets" database accessbile by all pod pilots.)
This is a piece of cake!
We started small trying to simulate what a new pilot might have access to considering his funds. Moving things like Garbage and Water. We then moved up the food chain to thing like Tobacco, Carbon, Electronic Parts, all the way up to Planetary Vehicles.
The key thing to remember is to always go for a full cargo. Never half step simply because you might make a better margin but don't have the funds to do a full load. Quantity is where you make your best profit. Another thing to consider is a multiple run to satisfy a buyer's volume in entirety. This will ensure that you get the best price for as much cargo as possible. (However that can be risky as someone can come along satisfying the customer's demand, decreasing the price asked.)
Always check for convenient hauling. Quite often you can find cargoes that will net you anywhere from 10 - 100+ isk per unit while remaining in the same system or with in 1 - 2 jumps. Always consider time as much a factor in your revenue projection as is net profit. Going 12 jumps to net 15 isk per unit is a relative waste of time.
We could not help adding a few words on the value of teamwork. Our society forces us to consider any advantage, such as lucrative trade routes, as treasured items not to be shared with anyone. Yet working together with a friend, or more, expands the one resource that is even more valuable, information.
Cross regional hauling is very lucrative when targeted just right. However the time involved in discovering those cross regional markets will see you losing out to someone who already knows about them. The only way to overcome such a handicap is to work together. Share information across regions to make one another more effective. This may mean that you have to indulge in a bit of quid pro quo but when your profits soar from such dealings it is not a losing situation at all.
In example, we discovered, my friend and I, a very lucrative cross-region trade item. Between our two vehicles we were able to haul almost 90% of the buyer's demand in one trip. The total net was 15.8 million isk, which we shared. For a 12 jump trip.
The upshot was that once we had sold the product the price demands dropped about 600 isk per unit. In other cases we've seen where one full truckload can drop the buyer's price by 10 - 15%, total. This is enough of a drop in price to reduce any significant net profit.
At the end of our two-day experiment we had taken our extravagant, to a new pilot, 25 million isk and nurtured it to a nice 65 million isk pot. 20 million isk a piece for a total of 8 hours of zero risk piloting time requiring only the skills need to fly a truck well.
The only thing that we can tell you at this point: If someone cries about how disappointing "trade" is don't believe him or her. They are either trying to discourage other budding traders to protect their markets or are simply disappointed that they can't find anything with higher margins then the gold mines they are already pumping as hard as they can.
And while there is a third possible reason, even the Jovians have yet to design a trading algorithm that works in conjunction with the "autopilot", we feel it is not necessary to elaborate on this "lame" type of thinking.[/
DeGroove,
Glad to see you here!
Raaz is a very skilled and knowledgable trader; he's got the knowin' of a lot of things.
I believe the answer to your question is "yes". If you happen to spot a good arbitrage opportunity remotely, you can buy the commodity remotely and then sell it remotely without having to travel there.
The catch, of course, is that those sorts of opportunities are rare; there are so many people working the market that situations where a commodity can be bought and turned around for profit at the same station or system never last very long.
I have a client that I haul for from time to time. He spends most of his time in small, fast, craft moving from system to system looking for good "buy" opportunities. He rarely moves any of his stock himself - he pays haulers to move it for him. It's an organizational challenge, but he manages it quite well and also pays haulers well. For example, he recently paid me 350,000 ISK to go to a station in the system I was already in and execute a sale for him. He profited about 3.5 million on the deal.
There are many ways to make your fortune as a trader in EVE. As I said, Raaz is a knowledgeable trader; take notes when he speaks.
Glad to see you here!
Raaz is a very skilled and knowledgable trader; he's got the knowin' of a lot of things.
I believe the answer to your question is "yes". If you happen to spot a good arbitrage opportunity remotely, you can buy the commodity remotely and then sell it remotely without having to travel there.
The catch, of course, is that those sorts of opportunities are rare; there are so many people working the market that situations where a commodity can be bought and turned around for profit at the same station or system never last very long.
I have a client that I haul for from time to time. He spends most of his time in small, fast, craft moving from system to system looking for good "buy" opportunities. He rarely moves any of his stock himself - he pays haulers to move it for him. It's an organizational challenge, but he manages it quite well and also pays haulers well. For example, he recently paid me 350,000 ISK to go to a station in the system I was already in and execute a sale for him. He profited about 3.5 million on the deal.
There are many ways to make your fortune as a trader in EVE. As I said, Raaz is a knowledgeable trader; take notes when he speaks.
Interesting...
Then if I get it correctly, the procurement and marketing skills allow you to take very easily "long" positions on the market.
If you identify a rather volatile market (for some reasons), then you can place the buy order remotely when you think it's undervaluing the item, wait, and give the sell order remotely when you believe the market is overvaluing the item again. If you want to buy and sell from different systems, then you have to actually move the stuff around.
It's actually quite interesting. Are there pilots specializing in this in TTI? I can understand that some people might find this a pretty dull profession actually...
Thanks for the tips and the article by the way.
-dg
If you identify a rather volatile market (for some reasons), then you can place the buy order remotely when you think it's undervaluing the item, wait, and give the sell order remotely when you believe the market is overvaluing the item again. If you want to buy and sell from different systems, then you have to actually move the stuff around.
It's actually quite interesting. Are there pilots specializing in this in TTI? I can understand that some people might find this a pretty dull profession actually...
Thanks for the tips and the article by the way.
-dg
Arbitrage
I enjoy engaging in arbitrage in game. Though political climate dictates ease of trading. Right now, there are a lot of bad guys all along the trading routes. It is highly likely to be ganked and cargo destroyed.
Just to clarify,... You can buy an item remotely. The moment you place the buy order, the item is yours and awaits you in your hanger in the station where it was put up for sell.
If you want to sell, and fill a preexisting order, you have to deliver the goods to the station where the buy order was placed BEFORE you can complete the sell transaction. As stated in Raaz's post, another trader can scoop the opportunity before you get the goods in-station, and leave you holding the proverbial bag.
Just to clarify,... You can buy an item remotely. The moment you place the buy order, the item is yours and awaits you in your hanger in the station where it was put up for sell.
If you want to sell, and fill a preexisting order, you have to deliver the goods to the station where the buy order was placed BEFORE you can complete the sell transaction. As stated in Raaz's post, another trader can scoop the opportunity before you get the goods in-station, and leave you holding the proverbial bag.
Capital
I found myself a little arbitrage opportunity by trading one commodity across the same system. It's not much, but if I had some capital I could make 300,000 in a couple of 2 minutes runs.
Is there any way I can get short term loans in the game?
Is there any way I can get short term loans in the game?
-
Raaz Satik
- Taggart Director
- Posts: 2026
- Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 2:40 pm
Awesome
And does it happen often that you find such an arb opportunity?
Let's put it this way, I'll be likely to find one when I travel randomly across 10 systems, 20, 100?
And btw. I'm not in the mood of following the quests given at the beginning by the game agent. Is that something I should reconsider or would you say I don't lose much by jumping into my trading career right at the beginning?
Thanks again for answering my many questions...
-dg
Let's put it this way, I'll be likely to find one when I travel randomly across 10 systems, 20, 100?
And btw. I'm not in the mood of following the quests given at the beginning by the game agent. Is that something I should reconsider or would you say I don't lose much by jumping into my trading career right at the beginning?
Thanks again for answering my many questions...
-dg
Hi degroove,
Thank you for your interest in TTI. Before you apply, please note that TTI and the Curse Alliance(CA) is currently engaged in a full-scale war with the XETIC Federation Alliance; this means that empire is very dangerous right now.
Good luck.
Thank you for your interest in TTI. Before you apply, please note that TTI and the Curse Alliance(CA) is currently engaged in a full-scale war with the XETIC Federation Alliance; this means that empire is very dangerous right now.
Good luck.
If it moves, shoot it;
If it doesn't move, shoot it anyway - it might move later.
As for the trading bit-
I can only say that Shar Tegral's article -- as far as I know -- only involved her and her buddy flipping NPC goods from/to NPCs.
She also used an Iteron V, the grand daddy of all haulers, which take a good 30 days to train to, depending on attributes.
When I first started out as a trader in EVE, I did the noob missions and a handful(about 10-15) agent missions to get some liquid assets. Following that, I trained up Minmatar Frigate to IV and bought myself a Probe frigate fitted with basic expanders and I went on my way.
After ~2 weeks I had earned -- in addition to the stuff I had spent along the way, such as skills -- 20 million ISK in profit, by casually playing a few hours a day.
If you cannot immediately see a market, try creating your own. It's not "that" hard and it is potentially very lucrative. But, as they say, no pain no gain so if you don't take risks(hauling crap for the NPCs) you don't stand to gain much either.
Good luck.
I can only say that Shar Tegral's article -- as far as I know -- only involved her and her buddy flipping NPC goods from/to NPCs.
She also used an Iteron V, the grand daddy of all haulers, which take a good 30 days to train to, depending on attributes.
When I first started out as a trader in EVE, I did the noob missions and a handful(about 10-15) agent missions to get some liquid assets. Following that, I trained up Minmatar Frigate to IV and bought myself a Probe frigate fitted with basic expanders and I went on my way.
After ~2 weeks I had earned -- in addition to the stuff I had spent along the way, such as skills -- 20 million ISK in profit, by casually playing a few hours a day.
If you cannot immediately see a market, try creating your own. It's not "that" hard and it is potentially very lucrative. But, as they say, no pain no gain so if you don't take risks(hauling crap for the NPCs) you don't stand to gain much either.
Good luck.
If it moves, shoot it;
If it doesn't move, shoot it anyway - it might move later.
More questions
Thanks for these answers.
What do you mean by "creating your own market"?
Few more questions while I have your attention:
- smuggling
It seems pretty lucrative. How about training the black market skill? Would that allow me to sell illegal goods on systems where you can make nearly 800% margings (e.g. dealing small arms)?
- skills
So you would advise me to train piloting skills rather than trading ones right from the beginning?
-death
Two part question... (i) Will anyone attack a small timer like me who just passes through a non secure system to trade? (ii) Do I have anything to lose beside my cargo if I die at this stage (given I have no skill or few and a basic craft) because you don't lose your cash when you die, do you?
If it is risky and I can lose much, what minimum level of security is it advisable to fly at this early stage?
And I'm really looking forward to join you guys... Do you know how long the application process usually takes? I sent an email to apply yesterday and I can imagine you have other things to do than process those...
Thanks again!
-dg
What do you mean by "creating your own market"?
Few more questions while I have your attention:
- smuggling
It seems pretty lucrative. How about training the black market skill? Would that allow me to sell illegal goods on systems where you can make nearly 800% margings (e.g. dealing small arms)?
- skills
So you would advise me to train piloting skills rather than trading ones right from the beginning?
-death
Two part question... (i) Will anyone attack a small timer like me who just passes through a non secure system to trade? (ii) Do I have anything to lose beside my cargo if I die at this stage (given I have no skill or few and a basic craft) because you don't lose your cash when you die, do you?
If it is risky and I can lose much, what minimum level of security is it advisable to fly at this early stage?
And I'm really looking forward to join you guys... Do you know how long the application process usually takes? I sent an email to apply yesterday and I can imagine you have other things to do than process those...
Thanks again!
-dg
-
Raaz Satik
- Taggart Director
- Posts: 2026
- Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 2:40 pm
Re: More questions
There are several different routes. Most people want (need) MWDs on their ships which means you have to train Navigation and Afterburner both to level IV. If your careful you can actually create a charactor that starts with Frigate IV. Depending on what race you are you will probably want to train industrial to level 1,2 or 3. If you want to go the trade skill route it is possible to create a new charactor that starts with Trade IV and Retail II which will give you quite a lot of market orders. Early in your career though you probably don't need that many orders as you won't have the capital to place them.degroove wrote:- skills
So you would advise me to train piloting skills rather than trading ones right from the beginning?
(i) YES. If they are at war with you they will attack you and pod kill you given the chance.degroove wrote:-death
Two part question... (i) Will anyone attack a small timer like me who just passes through a non secure system to trade? (ii) Do I have anything to lose beside my cargo if I die at this stage (given I have no skill or few and a basic craft) because you don't lose your cash when you die, do you?
If it is risky and I can lose much, what minimum level of security is it advisable to fly at this early stage?
(ii) You lose your ship (and its modules) and your cargo. You can insure your ship but not your modules or cargo. If you don't have a clone you will also lose skill points. You will also have to buy a new clone.
(iii) In a war situation there is no safe space. One of the biggest battlegrounds at the moment is Yulai, one of the biggest market centers in the game, with a security rating of 1.0
I'll let dough tackle some of the other questions.
Raaz
I shot off the next part of the application, degroove. It takes us 48 hours to process that one, or less if all the execs votes before that. I'll keep you posted.
As for the black market stuff. It's screwed at the moment. The NPCs slay your ass on sight if you haul it aruond.. there are ways around it, using an "exploit"(though it's not an illegal one).
As for the black market stuff. It's screwed at the moment. The NPCs slay your ass on sight if you haul it aruond.. there are ways around it, using an "exploit"(though it's not an illegal one).
If it moves, shoot it;
If it doesn't move, shoot it anyway - it might move later.
Application
Thanks for sending it. I had a slow morning at the office so I could actually send it back rather quickly - I didn't "cornercut" it though, I hope.