Economic Philosophy

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alaphforce
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Economic Philosophy

Post by alaphforce »

OK so my degree was in Philosophy, mainly cog psy and political. Some media philosophy and some philosophy of advanced technology.

So I was thinking today about money :shock:

To start with you have some chaps with some meat and berries and some other chaps with some pelts and hot sexy women (prehistoric hot sexy women) and they trade and everyone is happy.

Then one day some bloke has a bunch of shiny yellow stuff and another chap has a sharp piece of copper and so they trade again and then the bloke kills the chap and well the bloke has the sharp and the shiny.

Later on I hire you to whip my slaves but you dont want the cotton Im growing, I mean omgwtf would you do with it anyhow. So I give you some sterling and all is good. (this is hard currency, the value is absolute)

Then we come to the twentieth century and some twunk hands over small rectangular paper and in return gets whatever he can to help dull the pain of his miserable sod of a life. (This we shall call backed currency, the paper is almost valueless in and of its self but it represents something)

I missed a stage, there was a time when that valueless peice of paper actualy stood for a a real physical entity (namley gold and silver), today this is not the case, ie there is more money in circulation than acctual worth in sterling/gold backing.

EVE brings up an entirly new concept (well almost entirley new, the tech sector with its bubble burst around the mellinium was similar). In EVE the "government" (ie NPC and the devs) controll the amount of ISK in the economy. That is unless someone has an ISK printing machine :roll:
Anyway the money is completly digital and unbacked. If you need ISK you just go mine some ore and trade it for digital currency. They can return some of that ISK by charging for transactions and communications, but basicly the ISK has no physical form and therefore no value at all except as numerical representation of an items wealth.

Further thoughts:
To reign in on the civilian market the Empire sets price schemes for government sellers. CCP sets a base value for any object to be sold. They also set the amount of items released to market. Non government agents are allowed to sell items on the escrow market, and through the system market (or are these the same, example if I put a miner one up for sale does and NPC buy it or does a player buy it, or can an NPC buy it). In this respect objects become worth what people will pay for them, which has its own determinations but should hover fairly close to market value. What EVE is missing is consumable costs, at least at the small level (I guess anyone who manufactures would argue this with me, unless you can run a batch and then reconvert to minerals and rebatch). In RL we pay for food, fuel, rent DVDs, subscribe to games, ect. But in EVE we pay for what we get (excluding tax of course).


Thoughts for discussion:

1)What kind of monetary system is the system in EVE?

2)How do players effect the overall value of ISK, and similarly inflation?

3)Some people have claimed that market volatility is directly related to an overabundance of ISK in the game. Do you think they have a reasonable argument? Explain why or why not?

4)Would there ever be a way to fully hand the economy over to the player base? Why or why not?

5)Corporations have a share value listed when you view their information. What determines this value? Is there an EVE stock market?
If not, would it be plausable and/or worth while to set up an IPO system?

6)and lastly How long would Newsradio have continued if Phil Hartman had not died? :?
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musashi
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Post by musashi »

The Eve monetary system seems very similar to the currency systems used in most of the larger countries in the world. Basically people are trading a part of their life force for a symbolic currency, un-backed by any other asset. With some exceptions,
  • The means to greater economic efficiency is mostly controlled by CCP.
    There are no currency markets, only a single currency.
    There are no banks
    No centralized influence on the money supply
Isn’t interesting. That all the monetary systems you’ve described (barter, precious commodity trade, backed currency, and un-backed currency) all still exist in the world today. Think about the places were each of these systems are employed…

Notice how standards of living tend to correlate with advances in the monetary system?
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alaphforce
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Post by alaphforce »

Say you are right.....EVE has no central banking system.

Do banks make money? Can a private bank function in a market? Could we perform the role of EVE Bank? :roll:
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Emizzon
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Post by Emizzon »

Actually, our Finacial department acted like a bank. We had loans and savings running. Though there is no real money market to invest. We were able to offer a small return on investments (Savings accounts) while making a profit for TTI's funds with the Loans system.

Was only available to TTI members and the Savings was limited to a capped ammount.
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Post by ForumAdmin »

Akston Finance is dead?

:: shakes head ::

Running your own virtual bank is easy, and quite lucrative. Just need the startup cash and a military to enforce those larger loans.

And as for that stuff about financial systems - living in Japan has given me quite an insightful view. Try being in a country where credit cards and checks (the paper kind) barely exist. I had to take $5K out in cash to get my apartment, in the equiv of $50 bills... They gave me a nice paper receipt with a stamp on it to say I paid. I felt like I was in the 50s, only in the 50s you could write checks.

Stupid and inefficient, but at least it keeps everyone employed. =P

I can't wait to get back to the US and pay my bills online.
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Post by musashi »

You know I think Japan was on of the first places to base their monetary policy on a market-based commodity system. The Ri, I think, used to equal the annual rice consumption of a single person. It’s value used to fluctuate based on both supply and demand.

It is too bad they haven’t modernized much past this point. Heck I thought they were the driving force in the development of the smart cards.
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Post by ForumAdmin »

The only smart card use I've seen is with the SUICA, which allows you to access all of the JR East/JR and TokyoMetro (subway and bus) systems w/o buying a ticket. You can fill your card in pre-paid amounts or get billed I believe. That is pretty new and revolutionary here apparently. I've had my Washington DC Metro smartcard for almost 4 years now...

You can use this card at a handful of the quicky marts and kiosks in the train stations. Beyond that, better have cash on you. And forget about the internet, it's merely a pretty flash site to sell you something.

You can't even get an account with a Japanese bank w/o someone who's already a member of that bank sponsoring you, and there's no such thing as interest on bank desposits here and tons of fees on top of that. The only banks that anyone can walk into and start an account with are the big American banks which are kinda large around Tokyo Core... CitiBank especially.

Imagine the nightmare you have to go through to get a credit card. The sushi bar down the street takes credit cards and they make a BIG deal about it, cause it's amazing.

YOu know how in any sort of chain store they scan bar codes to ring up an item at the register? Not in Japan, even in the big chains. Even Sanrio (makers of Hello Kitty) look at the item, look for the price tag, punch the item cost into a generic cash register and you get a reciept that tells you how much you spent w/o any itemization. That's par for the course here. The only place I've seen bar codes used is quicky marts outside of train stations and the large ones inside of train stations. And grocery stores cause they're so huge.

Of course, they keep lots of people employed since for a big line of people you need 2 people to check you out with any efficency, one to read the prices, one to punch them into the register.
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Xavier Zyrae
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Post by Xavier Zyrae »

Yoshokun Shinzuku wrote:The only smart card use I've seen is with the SUICA.... etc etc.
Wow, this does surprise me... I've always thought of Japan as one of the leading technology developing countries in the world. I never expected them to have such a 'low-tech' banking system in place.

Over here in Holland it's not hard at all to get a credit card, I've got one, and I'm just a poor student! :wink: Also practically everyone uses so-called PIN cards to pay for just about anything, nobody ever uses checks, and cash typically only for amounts <$10. The system connects directly to your bank via a phone or DSL line and makes the transaction electronically as soon as you enter your 4 digit PIN and hit "OK", works great.
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Post by ForumAdmin »

That's been in the US for years. I can honestly say the only used a check was for my very oldschool health insurance company years ago to mail them my payments every quarter. Otherwise, I've always paid online or something.

This country is so backwards in so many ways. And the interesting thing is it's always on purpose. Because of the tech Japan produces people assume that it's this haven of technology. It is and it isn't. Consumer electronics are ahead of the curve here, yes, but I can tell you the only reason for this is that the Japanese have an obsession for the latest and greatest in this group mentality of totally rejecting old stuff if the collective thinking is that it's old. A few good advertisements w/ celebrities will do that. I shudder to think the % of Japanese income which is spent on getting a new cell phone every 3 months to be cool or the latest CD player (some of which are so small that it amazed me). Of course, don't forget all of this comes with a $300+ price tag, which no one in the rest of the world would be willing to pay.

You can set your watch to JR East and TokyoMetro, which is more than I can say for Europe. No offense, but I've sat at (or, well, just outside) Utrecht Station a few too many times to assume any Dutch train will get me there on time. The same goes for the UK. US trains tend to be on time even if the service isn't as regular, is far far more expensive, and it does take longer.

Of course, the cost of trains in Japan is staggering too, so there you go. Tokyo's subway is a little cheaper than NYC and awesomely organized, but then it isn't all that complicated either, IMO. It's by far the easiest subway system to navigate for a public transportation newbie that I've ever encountered anywhere in the world.

If you think the streets and allys in Europe are too small, Japan is worse, and they have people walking and biking in the middle of the road here with zero thought to the car idling behind them. I thought New Yorkers were fearless of cars, but these people are insane.

Japanese don't like foreigners. It's hard getting into dance clubs in this country being a non-Japanese. But the Nigerians and Ivory Coastian thugs that the Yakuza hire to do their dirty work now are more than free to enter.

I've been "randomly" checked for my immigration status by Tokyo police 3 times. It's legal for them to walk up to any non-Japanese citizen and ask to see their passport, visa, ID, and get home address and phone info to check if you're in the country illegally or not. To "prevent crime" they say.

The outside walls on Japanese houses are about 3-4 inches thick, with no insulation whatsoever. Central air conditioning is non-existant in homes and apartments and sometimes homes don't even come with heating despite the cold winters (my apartment has no heating). With the lack of insulation, if I turn my AC off from being super cold my room will normalize with the temperature outside in about 45 minutes with all the doors and windows closed.

Depsite common earthquakes, they still don't build the houses to withstand them because it would be too expensive. Brand new 2 story homes here are built strictly of wood 2x4's.

Doing laundry is a nightmare. In the US we always use dryers to dry our clothes. In NL I know this isn't as common, cause you hang your stuff up, but that's what the Japanese do exclusively. My washing machine's basin is about the size of a smaller laundry basket and my dryer is 6 inches deep and can hold about 1 pair of pants or 2 shirts. Don't even get me started about what using them actually does to my electric bill. I do my laundry on base.

Parking spaces are so small in Japan that cars come standard with side rear view mirrors that have a motor for them to fold in. I've been in parking spaces where people are centered inbetween their lines on both sides of me and I was unable to open my door enough to get out of the car.

The polution in Tokyo is staggering. Tokyo resides in a valley by a bay on the ocean called the Kanto Plain. Visibility is terrible and the rain is disgusting. I don't bother cleaning my car because if it rains it makes it look like I haven't cleaned my car for a month. The rain also makes the paint peel. Oh, and Japanese car windshields don't use non-shattering safety glass unless you get a performance car. Actually, only recently do Japanese cars even come with airbags, again, beside performance cars. I have a 92 Honda Prelude and it's got stuff that a lot of Japanese cars still don't have standard. Oh, and the emissions standards for these cars is terrible, apparently they have to spend a lot of cash getting the emissions up to standard for overseas due to how lax they are here in Japan. See my previous comments about Japanese rain. I can't leave my windows open in heavy traffic due to the fumes. If you thought LA was bad, give me a break. At least you can see more than 10km in the distance in Los Angeles. Not in Tokyo.

Japanese people are dirty. Outwardly they will clean to their heart's content, but if it LOOKS clean then that's fine with them. God help you if you lift something up tho, it's probably never been touched. They don't care about if it's really clean or not, appearance is everything. I spent a whole weekend disinfecting my apartment when I moved in, it was spotless on top, until I started moving stuff and it was a disgusting mold heaven. These places are built to collect mold and shit too, simple design changes would fix all of this, but they don't clean those areas so it doesn't matter.

I could go on and on about Japan. Got a stereotype you want to ask a question about? Just ask. I live off base on the economy so I experience a lot more than most on my base.

So far the only countries I've visited that I would consider living in beside the US are Canada and Sweden.

I miss my rich evil American standard of living greatly.
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Shazam0
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Post by Shazam0 »

wow. :shock: :shock: :shock:

do they play starcraft?
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alaphforce
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Post by alaphforce »

Unsure. But the Koreans sure do.

Hehe you think Japan is bad, Korea is a piping shit hole. Its a third world country outside of the major cities and away from the US bases. If we were not here this place would rice patties. I will say this for them AC and Heat are common. Seems everyone has a floor standing a/c and most houses have heating units that heat the floors (neat concept I thought). But unlike Japan Korea is dirty and they don't try to hide it. The people are also the greediest bastards I have ever seen.
They are also very rude when it comes to being considerate of other peoples property. Especialy food. Our ambulance drivers will just grab off oyur plate.

anyway, what was this thread about????
Musashi wrote:People that do not have practice being corrupt do stupid things.
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