The right to procreate

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Should the right to procreate be abridged?

There is no right to procreate
4
36%
You should only have the number of children you desire and can support
5
45%
I breath therefore I breed
2
18%
Hey the IVF doctor says there are 75 unfertilized eggs in the Petri dish, it would be morally wrong to just throw these eggs out
0
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Total votes: 11

musashi
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The right to procreate

Post by musashi »

Riprion wrote:What about the right to procreate? I don't see how you could mandate that people not reproduce.
This is a great stand alone question. Does my right to exist extend to a right to procreate? Are procreation and existence tied together?

Currently the mechanisms to prevent procreation are limited, but what if someday the natural ability to procreate was switched off in all people? And then market forces turned reproduction back on?

Re-engineering humankind such that the ability to breed is not automatically enabled seems like a great solution to me…
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Raaz Satik
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Re: The right to procreate

Post by Raaz Satik »

"desire" and "support" are very different things!
Riprion
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Re: The right to procreate

Post by Riprion »

I'm not sure option 2 and option 3 in the poll are mutually exclusive. I believe everyone has a right to procreate, but they should only have as many children as they can support. Also, just because you have a right to procreate doesn't mean that you have to exercise that right, you could very well be childless by choice.

I think this poll requires a comic interlude from "The Life of Brian".

Judith: [on Stan's desire to be a mother] Here! I've got an idea: Suppose you agree that he can't actually have babies, not having a womb - which is nobody's fault, not even the Romans' - but that he can have the *right* to have babies.
Francis: Good idea, Judith. We shall fight the oppressors for your right to have babies, brother... sister, sorry.
Reg: What's the *point*?
Francis: What?
Reg: What's the point of fighting for his right to have babies, when he can't have babies?
Francis: It is symbolic of our struggle against oppression.
Reg: It's symbolic of his struggle against reality.
Riprion
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Re: The right to procreate

Post by Riprion »

oh and "The Meaning of Life"

"Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irrate"
musashi
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Re: The right to procreate

Post by musashi »

I've got to watch that movie again... Life of Brian is just packed with humor.

"two for that!"
"you must be mad!..."

"...I won't sell it to you!"
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musashi
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Re: The right to procreate

Post by musashi »

The procreation question is fun for me to consider on many levels.

To create new life is, by definition outside the individual. So many societies have pondered this question and arrived at different answers. There is some really weird anthropology on this subject.

Parenting puts one person (the parent hopefully) in control of another. Our rights expand as we mature to majority. But Objectivism tends to deal with adults fully formed and in control of their faculties, fully accountable for their choices & actions. But children and child rearing complicate the model. And then there are teenagers.

And what about genetics… Does a person still have the right to breed if they have a known and high probability that their progeny are going to be a burden on society? (say Tay-Sachs disease where if both parents carry the recessive gene there is a 20% chance of passing this disease on to the offspring). I do not feel like I should have to pay for this situation, and yet my taxes subsidize the choices of defective people.

Oh the places this question could go…
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Riprion
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Re: The right to procreate

Post by Riprion »

Ok, lets see if my browser doesn't crash and disappear my post this time.

I think that the burden argument indicts the welfare state instead of the right to procreate. If there wasn't a welfare state the taxpayers wouldn't be burdened and therefore there would be no reason for the state to infringe on the individual's right to procreate.

The burden argument is very problematic. It is a terrible slippery slope as any risky behavior has the potential to create a burden on a welfare state. I recently argued with a friend's wife about the role of the state with regards to the burden issue. We discussed seat belt laws. She thought it was acceptable to force people to wear seat belts because they could get into an accident and be a burden on the taxpayers. Nevermind that the law affects the entirety of the citizenry on the potential of burden, but it opens the doors for all kinds of intrusions by the state. Where do you draw the line with regards to burden, seat belts, cigarettes, transfat or foie gras? All of these things contain the potential to burden. None of them harm other people, except in the case of cigarettes, but the study's methodology is specific to people the are exposed to large concentrations of secondhand smoke in a confined area for extensive lengths of time not intermittant exposure. That's another discussion, however. I hate to bring up 1984, but eveytime I hear this argument I think of a wallscreen exclaiming that a man of Winston's age should easily be able to touch his toes, and then ordering him to do so.

I think that people often confuse rights and entitlements. You have a right to work, but that does not entitle you to a job. Just as you have the right to procreate, you are not entitled to children. If a child's parents are abusive, society has decided that it is acceptable, for the protection of the children, to remove them from the environment. In the absence of a modern welfare state, the children that could not be supported simply died and were not a burden to the taxpayer, but the parents still maintained the right to procreate regardless.

I just thought of another twist to this argument. There is a direct correlation between the rate of population growth and the infant mortality rate. The higher the infant mortality rate is the more children parents will bear in order to insure that a few survive into adulthood. In the presence of a modern welfare state, infant mortality should be quite low as we see in the Industrialized World. This would ultimately lead to a low birth rate, which is also evident. Much of the First World is below the replacement rate. Maybe then, the burden of unsupported children is only temporary in that it will eventually lead to a lower birth rate and more sustainable numbers. :? (why must i make arguments for the welfare state?) :?
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Petyr Baelich
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Re: The right to procreate

Post by Petyr Baelich »

You have the right to do whatever you want in order to pursue your own happiness up until the point where it violates another human's right to live free in the manner of their choosing. It doesn't get much simpler than that. I really don't understand these latest posts, musashi. What's with the fascism?

How do someone else's children affect you in any way? A man can have a dozen children he cannot support and still not be in any way violating my rights up until the point where he expects me to support them and is willing to use force to get me to do so. At that point he is immoral; not because he had a bunch of kids, but because he is using force to get what he refuses to do through moral means.

The choices in your poll are utter bullshit. I'm tempted to edit it and add one that actually makes sense:

() You have the right to pursue your own happiness in any way that does not infringe on the rights of another human to do the same. The moral man does not produce more progeny than he can support any more than he does not spend more money than he makes.
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Petyr Baelich
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Re: The right to procreate

Post by Petyr Baelich »

musashi wrote:Re-engineering humankind such that the ability to breed is not automatically enabled seems like a great solution to me…
If you believe this, you are placing yourself in the same ideological group as Hitler. Every single one of your arguments is based on the premise that humans are immoral idiots incapable of anything good without artificial regulation. Who administers this regulation? Other humans. Hmmm...

Humans are exactly what they choose to be. They are neither inherently good or evil. They are exactly what they choose to be. The fact that some humans choose to behave immorally does not damn those who do not. Ideally, it does not even affect them.
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Petter Sandstad
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Re: The right to procreate

Post by Petter Sandstad »

There are strictly speaking no right to procreate, since it takes two people of opposite sex in order to procreate. The two have however individual rights, which among others include a right to enter an agreement to attempt to procreate.

Above that, I don't see that there is a problem.
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musashi
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Re: The right to procreate

Post by musashi »

Petyr Baelich wrote:
musashi wrote:Re-engineering humankind such that the ability to breed is not automatically enabled seems like a great solution to me…
If you believe this, you are placing yourself in the same ideological group as Hitler. Every single one of your arguments is based on the premise that humans are immoral idiots incapable of anything good without artificial regulation. Who administers this regulation? Other humans. Hmmm...
A similar group to be sure, although with a twist. Where Hitler sought specific breeding goals via eugenics, I would go a different direction. What if market forces were used to purchase the right to breed? And what if the price paid went towards ensuring the child had a minimum degree of support to sustain them until they were capable of sustaining themselves? This allows the market place to perform the eugenics, not specific humans.

Yeah, unfortunately I have approached it as if the majority of people are immoral idiots. I guess I’ve read too much history. I must be reading the wrong history. Definitely too much COPS. Man “as the heroic being” is a special and rare case in my mind.

Part of my problem is the book I am writing. As part of the plot I have to solve all the worlds’ problems and create a perpetually sustainable world. In doing this I have to get a bit heavy handed with the technology. And yes in the plot line I do regulate procreation by turning it from nominally "on" to "off". You know if you think about it - this future technology is relatively close to us. I’ve read that we are coming close to the option of genetically driving the mosquito to extinction by a similar mechanism if we choose. It would probably be simpler to control human procreation than to create a sustainable energy system at today’s consumption levels.

If it must be genocide, why not target the unborn?
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Riprion
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Re: The right to procreate

Post by Riprion »

There are strictly speaking no right to procreate, since it takes two people of opposite sex in order to procreate. The two have however individual rights, which among others include a right to enter an agreement to attempt to procreate.
Is there a right to assembly? That takes more than one person, but the group is made of individuals. All of those individuals have the right to get together with one another. I think the right to procreate would be similar. Again I think this is a confusion between a right and an entitlement. You have the right to procreate but you are not entitled to a mate.
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Petyr Baelich
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Re: The right to procreate

Post by Petyr Baelich »

Riprion wrote:
There are strictly speaking no right to procreate, since it takes two people of opposite sex in order to procreate. The two have however individual rights, which among others include a right to enter an agreement to attempt to procreate.
Is there a right to assembly? That takes more than one person, but the group is made of individuals. All of those individuals have the right to get together with one another. I think the right to procreate would be similar. Again I think this is a confusion between a right and an entitlement. You have the right to procreate but you are not entitled to a mate.
Exactly.
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Petter Sandstad
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Re: The right to procreate

Post by Petter Sandstad »

Riprion wrote: Is there a right to assembly? That takes more than one person, but the group is made of individuals. All of those individuals have the right to get together with one another. I think the right to procreate would be similar. Again I think this is a confusion between a right and an entitlement. You have the right to procreate but you are not entitled to a mate.
It is a confusion created by how you phrase it. A right to assembly, is the same as saying that one is entitled to assembling -- one is an assembler. An entitlement is giving someone a title with some corresponding right(legitimate or illegitimate). But what one should mean is a right to voluntarily come in agreement with others to assemble. A right to procreate would be self-contradictory, as there cannot be a legitimate right which violates other rights. It is not the same thing as for instance the right to movement, which is an individual right entirely dependent on one's own choice.

But if everyone is clear that "right to assembly" is merely an abbreviation of the more detailed description, one could certainly use the term "right to assembly". But then it would also seem that the whole problem has already been solved.
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Riprion
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Re: The right to procreate

Post by Riprion »

Ok Petter, I'll accept that "right to assembly" and "right to procreate" are shorthand for entering into voluntary agreement to do such. Although at this point I think you are also right about the problem being solved and we may be picking nits.

While we are picking nits, I think that your definition of entitlement is a tad problematic. This is a semantic argument, but I don't like the distinction between legitimate and illegitimate rights. I prefer to limit rights to natural rights which would be legitimate and the illegitimate rights are just claims. I know that I am in the minority on this as it seems most people think that everything that may be considered good should be labeled a right. In my opinion this just debases the concept of a right. In which case the granting of title would reference the definition of title which is to grant claim to.

Ok, I think that I have excised my argumentative side ... for at least a couple of hours. :wink:
musashi
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Re: The right to procreate

Post by musashi »

Petter Sandstad wrote:A right to procreate would be self-contradictory, as there cannot be a legitimate right which violates other rights.
I am in deep water here (well out of my element), so I may need more guidance than the initiated. Are these rights written down somewhere?

It makes sense that one right should not abridge another, is this list ranked?

To me this seems like one of the problems of the US constitution. The articles and amendments lack hierarchy. At least with the Quran we know that the crap Muhammad spewed out later takes presidence over the earlier sputum. It seems to me that hierarchy is the fundamental key in resolving dispute.

Is there a list of the human rights?

Should an Objectivist society have a list of these rights?
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Riprion
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Re: The right to procreate

Post by Riprion »

I was wrong. My argumentative side wasn't satiated.

If the right to procreate is shorthand for the right to enter into an agreement with another to attempt procreation, then is the right still maintained if the ability to procreate is limited? In some circumstances, one of the two individuals may not be able, naturally, to procreate, but in this case one may argue that they have the right if not the ability to procreate. If the ability can be limited and the right maintained then wouldn't that open up the possibility of abuse by the state in limiting ability while maintaining the right?
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