Absolute Truth
- Arakasi Takeda
- Posts: 681
- Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:58 pm
Absolute Truth
Epiphany - a personal aside.....
If my last response seems far more than a bit 'out there', in Objectivist terms, then let me state, for full disclosure, that your senses do not deceive you.
Last night, I sat down in front of my computer and started re-reading a number of threads on these forums. My project was simple one - understand why Olek, Tolthar, and myself always seem to get into an argument, no matter what the subject we are writing about.
I've said that I am a sort of 'pseudo-Popperian' empiricist - a 'scientific philosopher', if you like. Several of the foundational axioms of my personal world view are not completely dissimilar from those of Rand (and, one assume, subsequently Olek and Tolthar), so why the constant 'loggerheads'? Somewhere, there was a fundamental contradiction present - an irreconcilable difference that caused all rational discussion to degenerate to hopeless 'point-scoring', snide comments, and 'philosophical name-calling'.
And I realized, late last night, that it was completely my fault.
I'm not an Objectivist. Whatever similarities exist, the differences are all that matter. They are all that are sufficient to cause the problem.
Popper considered philosophy, and science, to be an 'on-going' process - something that never arrived at an absolute truth, but evolved, slowly, over time, as concepts were created, tested, falsified, and discarded. He was deeply skeptical of 'absolute truths'.
Objectivism, however, is quite comfortable with 'absolute truths'. There is one and only one way to 'be human', and it is already known as a certainty. Popperian philosophy might eventually arrive at the same conclusion, but because there is uncertainty in my world view, it will never be acceptable to an Objectivist. Uncertainty is simply not possible in Rand's formulation. Things necessarily have to be a certain way.
That's why I've routinely used the word 'dogmatic' in my conversations. Unconsciously, I was connecting Rand's pronouncements to the same level as religious dogma - truths that were absolutes in and of themselves. That's why I blew up and called Olek a 'fundamentalist' - his is a philosophy of literal truth, of undeniable axioms. Mine is not. Mine is a world of testable theories, of doubt, of necessary conditions for falsification. I can honestly believe that capitalism is the best theory going these days, but still harbor the possibility that something better might present itself. Such a though is impossible for Rand - it's practically heresy.
It's that doubt, that questioning, that has led to the arguments. While Olek is correct that I haven't read all of Rand's non-fiction, it isn't the case that I don't understand a rational foundationalist point of view. Her philosophy is founded on Aristotelian principles, which I have read and absorbed extensively (you can't be a Physics Major and 'escape' Aristotle). The problem is not understanding the exact concept - it's not accepting its certitude. That is very unlikely to change just because I read 'Selfishness' or 'The Unknown Ideal'.
So Olek, Tolthar, Petter, and anyone else whose put up with my ranting and occasional 'evasion' - I am sorry. I was blind to the cause of the argument, but I think I understand it a little better now. Hopefully, this little aside with supply you with context, even if you still consider me dead wrong for holding it
AT
If my last response seems far more than a bit 'out there', in Objectivist terms, then let me state, for full disclosure, that your senses do not deceive you.
Last night, I sat down in front of my computer and started re-reading a number of threads on these forums. My project was simple one - understand why Olek, Tolthar, and myself always seem to get into an argument, no matter what the subject we are writing about.
I've said that I am a sort of 'pseudo-Popperian' empiricist - a 'scientific philosopher', if you like. Several of the foundational axioms of my personal world view are not completely dissimilar from those of Rand (and, one assume, subsequently Olek and Tolthar), so why the constant 'loggerheads'? Somewhere, there was a fundamental contradiction present - an irreconcilable difference that caused all rational discussion to degenerate to hopeless 'point-scoring', snide comments, and 'philosophical name-calling'.
And I realized, late last night, that it was completely my fault.
I'm not an Objectivist. Whatever similarities exist, the differences are all that matter. They are all that are sufficient to cause the problem.
Popper considered philosophy, and science, to be an 'on-going' process - something that never arrived at an absolute truth, but evolved, slowly, over time, as concepts were created, tested, falsified, and discarded. He was deeply skeptical of 'absolute truths'.
Objectivism, however, is quite comfortable with 'absolute truths'. There is one and only one way to 'be human', and it is already known as a certainty. Popperian philosophy might eventually arrive at the same conclusion, but because there is uncertainty in my world view, it will never be acceptable to an Objectivist. Uncertainty is simply not possible in Rand's formulation. Things necessarily have to be a certain way.
That's why I've routinely used the word 'dogmatic' in my conversations. Unconsciously, I was connecting Rand's pronouncements to the same level as religious dogma - truths that were absolutes in and of themselves. That's why I blew up and called Olek a 'fundamentalist' - his is a philosophy of literal truth, of undeniable axioms. Mine is not. Mine is a world of testable theories, of doubt, of necessary conditions for falsification. I can honestly believe that capitalism is the best theory going these days, but still harbor the possibility that something better might present itself. Such a though is impossible for Rand - it's practically heresy.
It's that doubt, that questioning, that has led to the arguments. While Olek is correct that I haven't read all of Rand's non-fiction, it isn't the case that I don't understand a rational foundationalist point of view. Her philosophy is founded on Aristotelian principles, which I have read and absorbed extensively (you can't be a Physics Major and 'escape' Aristotle). The problem is not understanding the exact concept - it's not accepting its certitude. That is very unlikely to change just because I read 'Selfishness' or 'The Unknown Ideal'.
So Olek, Tolthar, Petter, and anyone else whose put up with my ranting and occasional 'evasion' - I am sorry. I was blind to the cause of the argument, but I think I understand it a little better now. Hopefully, this little aside with supply you with context, even if you still consider me dead wrong for holding it
AT
Arakasi Takeda
Former Chief Financial Officer
Former Director of Corporate Intelligence
Taggart Transdimensional Inc.
**************************************
"Beyond the senses is the mind, and beyond the mind is Reason, its essence."
Former Chief Financial Officer
Former Director of Corporate Intelligence
Taggart Transdimensional Inc.
**************************************
"Beyond the senses is the mind, and beyond the mind is Reason, its essence."
Ok, so there are no absolute 'truths', none at all, ever, never, and whatever.Arakasi Takeda wrote:Popper considered philosophy, and science, to be an 'on-going' process - something that never arrived at an absolute truth, but evolved, slowly, over time, as concepts were created, tested, falsified, and discarded. He was deeply skeptical of 'absolute truths'.
Right?
Didn't you just make an absolute statement/truth?
Ex-CEO of Taggart Transdimensional
"Objectivism is not only true, it is great! Why? Because of the volitional work a mind must have performed to reach for the first time so exalted a level of truth—and because of all the glorious effects such knowledge will have on man’s life, all the possibilities of action it opens up for the future." -- Leonard Peikoff
"Objectivism is not only true, it is great! Why? Because of the volitional work a mind must have performed to reach for the first time so exalted a level of truth—and because of all the glorious effects such knowledge will have on man’s life, all the possibilities of action it opens up for the future." -- Leonard Peikoff
- Arakasi Takeda
- Posts: 681
- Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:58 pm
Ok, so there are no absolute 'truths', none at all, ever, never, and whatever.Arakasi Takeda wrote:
Popper considered philosophy, and science, to be an 'on-going' process - something that never arrived at an absolute truth, but evolved, slowly, over time, as concepts were created, tested, falsified, and discarded. He was deeply skeptical of 'absolute truths'.
Right?
Didn't you just make an absolute statement/truth?
Apparently, I'm not the only person who needs to do some reading - the answer to your question is quite familiar to anyone who has even skimmed Popper.
While a person cannot have certainty of what is TRUE, one can be cartain about what is FALSE. That is the principal of falsifiability in a nutshell, and Popper's key insight on how to resolve particular issues of Hume's skepticism. I can't prove that the Theory of Gravity is absolutely true, but I could falsify it, given a particular physical observation. If you want to say that falsification leads to a particular type of absolute knowledge (the Ether doesn't exist, demons in my skull aren't responsible for headaches, etc.), I suppose you could, but I think you are most likely going to run into some epistomological problems. Is knowledge of an absolute negation really 'knowledge'? I don't know that I can answer that.
AT
Arakasi Takeda
Former Chief Financial Officer
Former Director of Corporate Intelligence
Taggart Transdimensional Inc.
**************************************
"Beyond the senses is the mind, and beyond the mind is Reason, its essence."
Former Chief Financial Officer
Former Director of Corporate Intelligence
Taggart Transdimensional Inc.
**************************************
"Beyond the senses is the mind, and beyond the mind is Reason, its essence."
- Arakasi Takeda
- Posts: 681
- Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:58 pm
To put an even finer point on your question -
1) "It MIGHT be true that there are no 'absolute' truths"
2) "Statement #1 is potentially falsifiable"
AT
1) "It MIGHT be true that there are no 'absolute' truths"
2) "Statement #1 is potentially falsifiable"
AT
Arakasi Takeda
Former Chief Financial Officer
Former Director of Corporate Intelligence
Taggart Transdimensional Inc.
**************************************
"Beyond the senses is the mind, and beyond the mind is Reason, its essence."
Former Chief Financial Officer
Former Director of Corporate Intelligence
Taggart Transdimensional Inc.
**************************************
"Beyond the senses is the mind, and beyond the mind is Reason, its essence."
Alright, let me dig this deaper then.Arakasi Takeda wrote:To put an even finer point on your question -
1) "It MIGHT be true that there are no 'absolute' truths"
2) "Statement #1 is potentially falsifiable"
Are you certain about 'might'? Are you obsolutely certain (1) might be true?
If so, didn't you just state another obsolute truth? If not, then what is your understanding what obsolute truth or statement is?
Ex-CEO of Taggart Transdimensional
"Objectivism is not only true, it is great! Why? Because of the volitional work a mind must have performed to reach for the first time so exalted a level of truth—and because of all the glorious effects such knowledge will have on man’s life, all the possibilities of action it opens up for the future." -- Leonard Peikoff
"Objectivism is not only true, it is great! Why? Because of the volitional work a mind must have performed to reach for the first time so exalted a level of truth—and because of all the glorious effects such knowledge will have on man’s life, all the possibilities of action it opens up for the future." -- Leonard Peikoff
- Tolthar Lockbar
- Posts: 732
- Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:10 pm
Hehe, I meant absolute, of course.Tolthar Lockbar wrote:Oleks + Absolute = Obsolute?
Ex-CEO of Taggart Transdimensional
"Objectivism is not only true, it is great! Why? Because of the volitional work a mind must have performed to reach for the first time so exalted a level of truth—and because of all the glorious effects such knowledge will have on man’s life, all the possibilities of action it opens up for the future." -- Leonard Peikoff
"Objectivism is not only true, it is great! Why? Because of the volitional work a mind must have performed to reach for the first time so exalted a level of truth—and because of all the glorious effects such knowledge will have on man’s life, all the possibilities of action it opens up for the future." -- Leonard Peikoff
Oh, my fault I should have pointed at something else, AT.
Are you absolutely sure about (2)?
Are you absolutely sure about (2)?
Ex-CEO of Taggart Transdimensional
"Objectivism is not only true, it is great! Why? Because of the volitional work a mind must have performed to reach for the first time so exalted a level of truth—and because of all the glorious effects such knowledge will have on man’s life, all the possibilities of action it opens up for the future." -- Leonard Peikoff
"Objectivism is not only true, it is great! Why? Because of the volitional work a mind must have performed to reach for the first time so exalted a level of truth—and because of all the glorious effects such knowledge will have on man’s life, all the possibilities of action it opens up for the future." -- Leonard Peikoff
- Arakasi Takeda
- Posts: 681
- Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:58 pm
What you are attempting to outlining above is an infinitly regressive set of conditional statements. In this particular instance, they are a form of infinitely regressive skeptical statements.Alright, let me dig this deaper then.Arakasi Takeda wrote:
To put an even finer point on your question -
1) "It MIGHT be true that there are no 'absolute' truths"
2) "Statement #1 is potentially falsifiable"
Are you certain about 'might'? Are you obsolutely certain (1) might be true?
If so, didn't you just state another obsolute truth? If not, then what is your understanding what obsolute truth or statement is?
From my epistomological standpoint, the question you asked is nonsense - there's no real epistological meaning to the phrase 'Are you certain about MIGHT?'.
A fuller explaination of why this is so can be found at:
http://journal.ilovephilosophy.com/Arti ... nalism/220
but the basic philosophy goes like this - infinite regressions of both reason and skepticism are meaningless because they violate the belief, truth, and evidence conditions of knowledge. Infinite regressions, one proposition justifying the next justifying the next, etc. lack a foundation which is physically observable (the evidence condition). Ultimately, all knowledge is based on physical observation, and physical observations are a finite process. Sooner or later, the infinite regression must be based on a finite observation, or it simply isn't knowledge. But _if_ an infinite regression is based on a finite observation, that is a contradiction. Ergo, infinite regressions are meaningless.
I don't have to be 'certain' of 'might'. A physical observation will eventually either falsify the first statement, or it will remain a viable theory. To try to create an infinitely regressive series of conditional truth statements as justification for #1 (a purely rational basis for believing #1) is ultimately meaningless.
I honestly couldn't tell you what an absolute truth is.....really, I use it only for your convenience, since your philosophy entails them. They are just nonsense to me. I attempt to use them as you would - as axiomatic foundations. I am 'pretending' they are based on a physical observation and have not yet been falsified, and deliberately ignoring the idea that they could be falsified, in order to get at the approximate value you place on them.
But examining a philosophy based on 'absolute truths' from a Popperian standpoint is really a matter of determining whether or not your philosophy makes any testable propositions, and attempting to falsify them. That's all I can really do. I can examine them from an evidentiary standpoint, or look for logical contradictions within them (logical contradictions born of logical constructs, themselves the result of a physical observation). So long as these examinations do not lead to a falsification of your philosophy, I can comfortably refer to it as a 'viable hypothesis'. But I would never go so far as to call it 'True'.
AT
Arakasi Takeda
Former Chief Financial Officer
Former Director of Corporate Intelligence
Taggart Transdimensional Inc.
**************************************
"Beyond the senses is the mind, and beyond the mind is Reason, its essence."
Former Chief Financial Officer
Former Director of Corporate Intelligence
Taggart Transdimensional Inc.
**************************************
"Beyond the senses is the mind, and beyond the mind is Reason, its essence."
Alright, AT, this is nuts now, but I'll ask one more time.
Nor of this.
... and so on and so on.
None of the stuff you just said you can be sure about, ever. Thus, why do you even bother telling me of this, if you are not sure about this and never will?
We have reached the end, AT. There is nowhere else to go. You admitted that whatever you said you will never be sure of. Thus, I don't have a reason to talk to you anymore. I don't wish to discuss topics with those can't even be sure of his own existence, my existence, or even the existence of the world.
Very nice, dumb butts like Descartes and his theory that one can't be sure the existence exists.Arakasi Takeda wrote:http://journal.ilovephilosophy.com/Arti ... nalism/220
But of course, you are not certain of this, right?but the basic philosophy goes like this - infinite regressions of both reason and skepticism are meaningless because they violate the belief, truth, and evidence conditions of knowledge.
Infinite regressions, one proposition justifying the next justifying the next, etc. lack a foundation which is physically observable (the evidence condition).
Nor of this.
Nor of this.Ultimately, all knowledge is based on physical observation, and physical observations are a finite process.
Thus, since you are not sure about previous stuff, you certainly can't make this a sure conclusion either.Sooner or later, the infinite regression must be based on a finite observation, or it simply isn't knowledge. But _if_ an infinite regression is based on a finite observation, that is a contradiction. Ergo, infinite regressions are meaningless.
... and so on and so on.
None of the stuff you just said you can be sure about, ever. Thus, why do you even bother telling me of this, if you are not sure about this and never will?
We have reached the end, AT. There is nowhere else to go. You admitted that whatever you said you will never be sure of. Thus, I don't have a reason to talk to you anymore. I don't wish to discuss topics with those can't even be sure of his own existence, my existence, or even the existence of the world.
Ex-CEO of Taggart Transdimensional
"Objectivism is not only true, it is great! Why? Because of the volitional work a mind must have performed to reach for the first time so exalted a level of truth—and because of all the glorious effects such knowledge will have on man’s life, all the possibilities of action it opens up for the future." -- Leonard Peikoff
"Objectivism is not only true, it is great! Why? Because of the volitional work a mind must have performed to reach for the first time so exalted a level of truth—and because of all the glorious effects such knowledge will have on man’s life, all the possibilities of action it opens up for the future." -- Leonard Peikoff
- Arakasi Takeda
- Posts: 681
- Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:58 pm
Olek -
See if you can follow this conversation:
Speaker One - You believe that 'Existence Exists'?
Speaker Two - Yes
Speaker One - Prove it
Speaker Two - It's Self-Evident
Speaker One - Prove it's self-evident
Speaker Two - It just is...it's an axiom
Speaker One - Prove it's an axiom
Speak Two - That's stupid. You don't _prove_ an axiom
Speaker One - Prove that you don't have to prove an axiom
Speaker Two - I don't have to...an axiom doesn't have to be proved! It's an absolute truth.
Speaker One - Prove that you don't have to prove an axiom.
.
.
.
Speaker Two - I'm not talking to you.
**********************************************
The fact is, I can construct an infinitely regressive series of 'prove it' statements in exactly the same way you can construct an infinite series of 'are you _absolutely sure_' statements. My telling you to 'prove' an absolute truth is as nonsensical to you as you asking me 'are you absolutely sure of THAT?' is to me.
Within our respective metaphysical and epistomological systems, these two types of regressive statements are non-sense to the other.
Now, if you still can't wrap your head around the concept, then you are right, there's no point in having a conversation.
AT
See if you can follow this conversation:
Speaker One - You believe that 'Existence Exists'?
Speaker Two - Yes
Speaker One - Prove it
Speaker Two - It's Self-Evident
Speaker One - Prove it's self-evident
Speaker Two - It just is...it's an axiom
Speaker One - Prove it's an axiom
Speak Two - That's stupid. You don't _prove_ an axiom
Speaker One - Prove that you don't have to prove an axiom
Speaker Two - I don't have to...an axiom doesn't have to be proved! It's an absolute truth.
Speaker One - Prove that you don't have to prove an axiom.
.
.
.
Speaker Two - I'm not talking to you.
**********************************************
The fact is, I can construct an infinitely regressive series of 'prove it' statements in exactly the same way you can construct an infinite series of 'are you _absolutely sure_' statements. My telling you to 'prove' an absolute truth is as nonsensical to you as you asking me 'are you absolutely sure of THAT?' is to me.
Within our respective metaphysical and epistomological systems, these two types of regressive statements are non-sense to the other.
Now, if you still can't wrap your head around the concept, then you are right, there's no point in having a conversation.
AT
Arakasi Takeda
Former Chief Financial Officer
Former Director of Corporate Intelligence
Taggart Transdimensional Inc.
**************************************
"Beyond the senses is the mind, and beyond the mind is Reason, its essence."
Former Chief Financial Officer
Former Director of Corporate Intelligence
Taggart Transdimensional Inc.
**************************************
"Beyond the senses is the mind, and beyond the mind is Reason, its essence."
- Arakasi Takeda
- Posts: 681
- Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:58 pm
You really are dense.You admitted that whatever you said you will never be sure of. Thus, I don't have a reason to talk to you anymore. I don't wish to discuss topics with those can't even be sure of his own existence, my existence, or even the existence of the world.
I said that I cannot be 'absolutely sure', in the way you define absolute.
What you fail to recognize is that, within my own metaphysics, I can be reasonably sure that I exist, and that you exist, and that the world exists.
My existence, your existence, and the world's existence are all hypothetical statements. They cannot be prove 'absolutely true', but they can be falsified.
Just because something can be falsified doesn't mean that it IS false.
That's your failure. You are equating falsifiability with extreme skepticism (we can never know anything). These are not equivelent concepts. You are trying to make them the same in order to 'win' a philosophical discussion.
The evidence that my philosophical system works is all around you, because it is very basis of the science which makes your computer work, you car drive, you electricity flow....all of it.
You're right - this is pointless. Why am I wasting my time talking to someone who doesn't believe science is valid because it can't be proven? You really are nuts.
AT
Arakasi Takeda
Former Chief Financial Officer
Former Director of Corporate Intelligence
Taggart Transdimensional Inc.
**************************************
"Beyond the senses is the mind, and beyond the mind is Reason, its essence."
Former Chief Financial Officer
Former Director of Corporate Intelligence
Taggart Transdimensional Inc.
**************************************
"Beyond the senses is the mind, and beyond the mind is Reason, its essence."
Arakasi Takeda wrote:I do not have any desire to be considered a source of disruption or controversy with the corp that I have loved and admired since I started playing Eve, but I feel that my ongoing discussions in the Deep Thoughts forums have made me such. My opinions and reasonings on these subjects are not, IMHO, likely to change anytime soon, nor is my passion for debating them, so I fear that the growing acrimony building in those posts would threaten to spill over into my game play. This is not good for me, and it is certainly not good for the Corp. . . I understand my time to move on
Arakasi Takeda wrote:"You are really dense... Your argument is juvenile...Every time we have a conversation, my opinion of you slips a bit more"
I feel that the level of animosity and disrespect that you weave into your posts would make very few of us willing to even consider your assertions, let alone buy into them. I'm pretty impressed with the patience of my corp mates, as I read them following your twisted logic through multiple threads...
So, I wanted to ask you a philisophical question... Why are you posting here?
- Arakasi Takeda
- Posts: 681
- Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:58 pm
Sophid said:
I feel that the level of animosity and disrespect that you weave into your posts would make very few of us willing to even consider your assertions, let alone buy into them. I'm pretty impressed with the patience of my corp mates, as I read them following your twisted logic through multiple threads...
So, I wanted to ask you a philisophical question... Why are you posting here?
My answer to you is this - I was not the first person to be antagonistic here. The statements you are quoting are my reaction to others being antagonistic to me.
I post on this forum because I enjoy intellectual debate. I like seeing what articles and ideas are presented here, and I enjoy remarking on them. I enjoy asking questions, and I enjoy answering them.
You state that you are impressed by the patience of your corp mates, as you read through 'my twisted logic'. Look at how easily you slipped a slap in my face into your comment, while simultaneously berating me for being indignant. How very clever and self-righteous of you.
How do you suppose I should answer you? Should I smile, applaud you for your comment, and thank you for calling me 'twisted'? Is that the reaction _you_ would have, were I remarking on your comments?
I would absolutely enjoy having a civil conversation about metaphysics without someone telling me 'I'm nuts'. Yet, in this very thread, that is precisely what Olek called me. Should I not respond in kind? Shall I simply accept insults and not give them in equal measure?
Here's an idea - start a conversation about a subject, _any_ subject, and strictly forbid all participants from using terms like 'twisted', 'nuts', etc.
The first time someone does, kick them out of the conversation.
I will give you three to one odds that it isn't me. If you truly believe that I am the aggressor - that I am the one causing the problem, then put your money where your mouth is. Let's let reality decide.
Game?
*******************************************
Edited for one addition -
As a demonstration of what I mean, I'd like to point out to you personally Sophid that, in the entire time since my return to boards, you and I have had exactly two interactions on this board. The first was a post by you were you expressed your displeasure at the use of racially derogatory words by other of your fellow corp members. My response to your post was in complete support of your position.
Our second interaction was the one above, in which YOU used the word 'twisted' in reference to me. You could have used the word 'flawed', and I could easily have accepted it as a simple value judgement. But the word 'twisted' has other implied connotations which are not at all neutral or kind. You were the first person to introduce an insult into this interaction. I consider you the aggressor here - I ask that you examine your own behavior before judging mine.
AT
Last edited by Arakasi Takeda on Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Arakasi Takeda
Former Chief Financial Officer
Former Director of Corporate Intelligence
Taggart Transdimensional Inc.
**************************************
"Beyond the senses is the mind, and beyond the mind is Reason, its essence."
Former Chief Financial Officer
Former Director of Corporate Intelligence
Taggart Transdimensional Inc.
**************************************
"Beyond the senses is the mind, and beyond the mind is Reason, its essence."
- Arakasi Takeda
- Posts: 681
- Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:58 pm
We _are_ our ideas, Sophid. Everything I know about you are your thoughts as you express them here, in this forum. Everything I know of Olek is what he has written here.I've seen lots of people attacking your ideas. Show me where they stooped to attacking you.
In this digital forum, everything we are is what we write.
Now, if Olek would like to express his opinion that my ideas are flawed, that they are derived from incorrect principles, that I am mistaken, well, that's fine, civil conversation.
But if he says that they are 'twisted', 'nuts', or insinuate that I am not worthy to talk to because 'I can't be sure of my own existence, etc.' ( A statement I most certainly did not make, but which he implied I by purposefully bending the meaning of a well establish philosophical doctrine into a straw man to justify his unfair statement), then the meaning of the statement is quite clear.
AT
Arakasi Takeda
Former Chief Financial Officer
Former Director of Corporate Intelligence
Taggart Transdimensional Inc.
**************************************
"Beyond the senses is the mind, and beyond the mind is Reason, its essence."
Former Chief Financial Officer
Former Director of Corporate Intelligence
Taggart Transdimensional Inc.
**************************************
"Beyond the senses is the mind, and beyond the mind is Reason, its essence."
- Arakasi Takeda
- Posts: 681
- Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:58 pm
Also Sophid, before I forget....let me ask you the obvious followup to your question:
If I am such a nuisance, such a hopeless malcontent, why do you address me? Everyone on this board seems to have a belief in the existence of Free Will, to a greater or lesser extent. Nothing compelled you to step into the conversation, so, why did you do it?
AT
If I am such a nuisance, such a hopeless malcontent, why do you address me? Everyone on this board seems to have a belief in the existence of Free Will, to a greater or lesser extent. Nothing compelled you to step into the conversation, so, why did you do it?
AT
Arakasi Takeda
Former Chief Financial Officer
Former Director of Corporate Intelligence
Taggart Transdimensional Inc.
**************************************
"Beyond the senses is the mind, and beyond the mind is Reason, its essence."
Former Chief Financial Officer
Former Director of Corporate Intelligence
Taggart Transdimensional Inc.
**************************************
"Beyond the senses is the mind, and beyond the mind is Reason, its essence."
All wrong.Arakasi Takeda wrote:Olek -
See if you can follow this conversation:
Speaker One - You believe that 'Existence Exists'?
Speaker Two - Yes
Speaker One - Prove it
Speaker Two - It's Self-Evident
Speaker One - Prove it's self-evident
While, I give you something additional to ponder on: http://peikoff.com/opar/certainty.htm
I'll also ask you by what standard will you judge my proof that existence exists?
Now, with any proof, there is some standard that one applies an argument against and checks if everything is good, and thus concludes it is a proof.
Now, tell me the standard you would use for checking my proof of existance exists AND not include in any of it that _something_, _anything_ exists.
Ex-CEO of Taggart Transdimensional
"Objectivism is not only true, it is great! Why? Because of the volitional work a mind must have performed to reach for the first time so exalted a level of truth—and because of all the glorious effects such knowledge will have on man’s life, all the possibilities of action it opens up for the future." -- Leonard Peikoff
"Objectivism is not only true, it is great! Why? Because of the volitional work a mind must have performed to reach for the first time so exalted a level of truth—and because of all the glorious effects such knowledge will have on man’s life, all the possibilities of action it opens up for the future." -- Leonard Peikoff
- Arakasi Takeda
- Posts: 681
- Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:58 pm
Let me try to be very clear here - the url that you included is, in fact, a formulation of my metaphysics as well as yours. You are creating a false distinction. Further, you are mis-ascribing a metaphysical definition to me that I do not hold, and my own philosophy rejects as much as your own.I'll also ask you by what standard will you judge my proof that existence exists?
Now, with any proof, there is some standard that one applies an argument against and checks if everything is good, and thus concludes it is a proof.
Now, tell me the standard you would use for checking my proof of existance exists AND not include in any of it that _something_, _anything_ exists.
Let me quote the important passages:
The first of the two partial quotes is a statement which I would accept as a statement of necessary doubt - NOT absolute skepticism, but rather the perfectly reasonable assumption that man is not omniscient. The first error you made in our discussion was in classifying my inability to be completely certain as equivelent to absolute doubt. Even Peikoff rejects this idea -A man does not know everything, but he does know what he knows....to adduce evidence for a conclusion is to place it within a context and thereby to define precisely the conditions of its applicability.
The second half of the original quote refers to adducing evidence for a conclusion _within a context_ and thereby defining precisely the conditions of its application.Conceptual knowledge rests on logic within a context, not on omniscience
This is very similar to what I was referring to when I said that I could be reasonably certain of my existence, your existence, the world's existence, etc. I can 'know' these things because, within the specific context of my current perceptial awareness, these things have not been falsified. I cannot say with absolute (omniscient) certainty that this will be true at some undefined point in the future, but that is immaterial because I am speaking of the context of the 'now'.
Our difference appears to be one of terms - take this quote, for instance:
I claim that you are asking me to prove that I know something in the definition of 'absolute' that Peikoff himself claims is incorrect - you are asking me if I know 'for certain' (omniscient absolute) that 'I don't know something for certain'. You are trying to trap me with a definition of certain even your own philosophy rejects.Many people in our Kantian era think, mistakenly, that absolutism is incompatible with a contextual approach to knowledge. These people define an "absolute" as a principle independent of any other fact or cognition; i.e., as something unaffected by anything else in reality or in human knowledge.
The difference here is one of language - Peikoff states that the proper use of the word 'absolute' is one grounded in a physical observation of reality. If you observe something, you can know it 'absolutely', within that specific context.
Popper would not use the term 'absolute', because it is a value-laden term most people associate with that incorrect Kantian definition above. Instead, Popper states that observation acts as a 'check' on a particular hypothesis. If the hypothesis is 'I exist', for instance, the physical observation would either falsify the hypothesis, or support it. Obviously, at this moment, my observation is that I exist. I cannot be omniscently certain that will be the case ten minutes from now (maybe I'll have a heart attack in five), so I do not know that 'I exist' in any 'absolute' terms temporally (again, absolute is used as omniscent here). In ten minutes time, I'll do another observation, and it will also either falsify or support the hypothesis. So long as the observations support the hypothesis, then 'I exist' is a good one.
If you want to use the term 'absolute' as Peikoff defines it - 'knowledge adduced from evidence, within a specific context, based on reality', then there is no real difference between your definition and mine - the difference is purely symantic because I would never use the word 'absolute' for that way. Instead, I will use the phrase 'physical observation supports this specific knowledge hypothesis, within this context, at this time.', or, I would shorten it up and say 'I am reasonably certain'.
Does that resolve this issue to your satisfaction?
AT
Arakasi Takeda
Former Chief Financial Officer
Former Director of Corporate Intelligence
Taggart Transdimensional Inc.
**************************************
"Beyond the senses is the mind, and beyond the mind is Reason, its essence."
Former Chief Financial Officer
Former Director of Corporate Intelligence
Taggart Transdimensional Inc.
**************************************
"Beyond the senses is the mind, and beyond the mind is Reason, its essence."
Re: ARI Press Release: Gates Talking Out of His Butt
musashi: in all your posts that I've read I noticed one mistake which keeps repeating. It seems to be a contradiction you identify, and therefor ask questions about "collective" situations.
Here is an example to explain what I mean: You want to show that something (like government funded education, or government funded shelters) can benefit "society". Now, since society is composed of individual men, you think, you have proven that a method of force is good for men, and therefor you think you see a contradiction to Objectivist principle that a method of force between men is bad.
I believe you see the contradiction, since you know that force used against a man is not good for his life. Even if eventually it gives him more money. (For example, suppose you've been saving for your dream of opening an ice cream shop. Then someone forces you to give that money to him, invests it in stocks, and gives you some time later more than what he took. Did he do you good? Obviously not. Money by itself is not good detached from how a person chooses to use it or earn it.)
And yet you are trying to prove that a method of force is good anyway. How is this achieved?
mathematically, this can be described as follows:
Suppose X stands for a man. X1,X2,...Xn are individual people.
We know that F (stands for force) is bad for X. F(Xi)=Bad for any i between 1 and n. But, we want to prove that F(X)=Good. So here is how we do it:
We define Y=X1+X2+...+Xn. Now, since Y is a sum of X's, it preserves the "mold and characteristics" of X. So Let's treat Y like another X and call it X_Big (X_Big is society, treated as a single human unit). Now if F(X1) Produces wealth, then Y has wealth. Now wealth given to some specific person may be good or bad for him, depending on his life, desires, etc'. But wealth for Y is always good, since Y is a weird average of people. It cannot be said to have a personality or life, but it still needs wealth to maintain physical life. So we establish that F(Y)=Good. Now Y is really X_Big that we recall from before, and therefore F(Xi)=Good. Case proven, we feel very sophisticated.
Conclusion? If you see a contradiction don't try to prove that it exists. That doesn't make you appear smart and sophisticated. It makes you look like you aren't dedicated to finding the truth.
Proving contradictions is the fuel of self-esteem of bad philosophers. No one here would appreciate that sort of thing, except, maybe, Arakasi Takeda.
Well, I hope this helped.
Here is an example to explain what I mean: You want to show that something (like government funded education, or government funded shelters) can benefit "society". Now, since society is composed of individual men, you think, you have proven that a method of force is good for men, and therefor you think you see a contradiction to Objectivist principle that a method of force between men is bad.
I believe you see the contradiction, since you know that force used against a man is not good for his life. Even if eventually it gives him more money. (For example, suppose you've been saving for your dream of opening an ice cream shop. Then someone forces you to give that money to him, invests it in stocks, and gives you some time later more than what he took. Did he do you good? Obviously not. Money by itself is not good detached from how a person chooses to use it or earn it.)
And yet you are trying to prove that a method of force is good anyway. How is this achieved?
mathematically, this can be described as follows:
Suppose X stands for a man. X1,X2,...Xn are individual people.
We know that F (stands for force) is bad for X. F(Xi)=Bad for any i between 1 and n. But, we want to prove that F(X)=Good. So here is how we do it:
We define Y=X1+X2+...+Xn. Now, since Y is a sum of X's, it preserves the "mold and characteristics" of X. So Let's treat Y like another X and call it X_Big (X_Big is society, treated as a single human unit). Now if F(X1) Produces wealth, then Y has wealth. Now wealth given to some specific person may be good or bad for him, depending on his life, desires, etc'. But wealth for Y is always good, since Y is a weird average of people. It cannot be said to have a personality or life, but it still needs wealth to maintain physical life. So we establish that F(Y)=Good. Now Y is really X_Big that we recall from before, and therefore F(Xi)=Good. Case proven, we feel very sophisticated.
Conclusion? If you see a contradiction don't try to prove that it exists. That doesn't make you appear smart and sophisticated. It makes you look like you aren't dedicated to finding the truth.
Proving contradictions is the fuel of self-esteem of bad philosophers. No one here would appreciate that sort of thing, except, maybe, Arakasi Takeda.
Well, I hope this helped.
- Tolthar Lockbar
- Posts: 732
- Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:10 pm
Re: ARI Press Release: Gates Talking Out of His Butt
First of all, what else is there? Things that one can be unreasonable certain about?AT wrote:I am reasonably certain
Also, are you then reasonably certain that free will exists or not?
If Tolmart doesn't have it in stock, you get a free shuttle!
(Must be something with a BPO cost of less than 20 mil. One shuttle a day and per an item.)
- Arakasi Takeda
- Posts: 681
- Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:58 pm
Re: ARI Press Release: Gates Talking Out of His Butt
If you use the word 'absolute' in the Kantian sense, then yes, it is possible to be 'unreasonably certain' of something. And 'absolute truth' is something unreasonable, because it presupposes that you know something to be true for all time, under all conditions. But since human beings are not omniscient, you cannot know that you will never encounter a case of falsification at some point in the future, or that, even after you are dead, someone else will.Tolthar wrote:
First of all, what else is there? Things that one can be unreasonable certain about?
This is why Popper abandoned the idea of 'absolute truths', and, instead, confined knowledge to that which can be verified or falsified in discrete observable circumstances.
At this time, I have not encountered any case which falsifies the hypothesis that human beings possess free will, so I am reasonably certain it exists.Tolthar wrote:
Also, are you then reasonably certain that free will exists or not?
However, very recent developments in neuro-biology are provoking some interesting possible test cases for verifying or falsifying the claim. If it is true that our brains are ultimately completely mechanistic (we are some kind of complex biological Turning machine), and all of our actions can be completely determined by the current biochemical, bioelectrical, and mechanistic state of our brains, then it is possible that free will is just an illusion created by the very advanced machine we all possess. Our actions may be bounded by the total number of possible mechanical states our brains can take. Now, the number of those states may be a very large number, but if it is limited at all, then free will is necessarily limited to that number of states and is not infinite (the condition necessary for complete free will).
There is also the possibility that some humans can obtain different numbers of states than others (due to different experiences creating different synaptic connections, etc.); in that case, some humans may be more 'free' than others, in regards to their potential for taking actions determined by the larger number of states.
It is a highly theoretical supposition, but one that might prove testable as our knowledge of the brain's form and functions increases.
AT
Arakasi Takeda
Former Chief Financial Officer
Former Director of Corporate Intelligence
Taggart Transdimensional Inc.
**************************************
"Beyond the senses is the mind, and beyond the mind is Reason, its essence."
Former Chief Financial Officer
Former Director of Corporate Intelligence
Taggart Transdimensional Inc.
**************************************
"Beyond the senses is the mind, and beyond the mind is Reason, its essence."
Re: ARI Press Release: Gates Talking Out of His Butt
{ Sarcasm to follow. }
Life is an illusion. None of us are alive.
How could life ever possibly form from dead things, such as atoms and molecules?
All of them are dead, thus anything or any system that is built on them (dead things) must be dead as well?
EDIT: spellings
Life is an illusion. None of us are alive.
How could life ever possibly form from dead things, such as atoms and molecules?
All of them are dead, thus anything or any system that is built on them (dead things) must be dead as well?
EDIT: spellings
Ex-CEO of Taggart Transdimensional
"Objectivism is not only true, it is great! Why? Because of the volitional work a mind must have performed to reach for the first time so exalted a level of truth—and because of all the glorious effects such knowledge will have on man’s life, all the possibilities of action it opens up for the future." -- Leonard Peikoff
"Objectivism is not only true, it is great! Why? Because of the volitional work a mind must have performed to reach for the first time so exalted a level of truth—and because of all the glorious effects such knowledge will have on man’s life, all the possibilities of action it opens up for the future." -- Leonard Peikoff
- Tolthar Lockbar
- Posts: 732
- Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:10 pm
Re: ARI Press Release: Gates Talking Out of His Butt
Can you tell me why this began? Why was the absolute thing brought up. As far as I know, Oleks or I never claimed any type of omniscient knowledge.Arakasi Takeda wrote:And 'absolute truth' is something unreasonable, because it presupposes that you know something to be true for all time, under all conditions.
And your proof for this is?At this time, I have not encountered any case which falsifies the hypothesis that human beings possess free will, so I am reasonably certain it exists.
If Tolmart doesn't have it in stock, you get a free shuttle!
(Must be something with a BPO cost of less than 20 mil. One shuttle a day and per an item.)